My name is John golden from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined again by Patrick Renoir, say how you doing Patrick very good. Thank you. How are you excellent and Patrick’s new book has just come out – hit hit the bookshelves Amazon everywhere the persuasion code? How neuromarketing can help you persuade anyone anytime anywhere anywhere anytime and Patrick yeah? You wrote your first book 16 years ago and, as we were saying just before we came on air you’ve been kind of writing.
You and your cohorts been kind of writing this book now follow-up book for 16 years, so how’s it taking so long. Well, it’s taking so long because the very first book I wrote was actually the first book on neuromarketing, so we almost people didn’t even know what new marketing was. We did not invent the word we adopted it. You know the first time we heard it because we felt it was the best explanation of what we were doing but Justin.
You know the amount of things that have come out, that being you in the last 15 years may be overwhelming, and we felt we had to write really a second book. So what are some of the major things that have evolved or changed, or that you’ve discovered in the interim that really made this new book compelling? Well the number of things. But the first thing is when no marketing first started to appear.
The promise was just almost too good to be true, in other words, people have known for a long time that marketing does not really work, because marketing is about asking people. What do you want and then you base your product development and your sales and marketing strategy and what people have self-reported so because we know people don’t know what they want. You know billions of dollars are wasted on failing marketing campaigns every year, so the promise of normal marketing was that by measuring directly on the body of people, values physiological changes that would we would get a really good indication about what they really want and, as a Result, you know everybody would save money, all marketing campaigns would be way more, effective, etc, but it has not really been delivering opens Provence, and one of the reason is that it’s very easy to get update.
I know what you can put electrodes on the head of people can ask them question: you can make these physiological measurements, but how do you interpret those and how do you actually deliver marketing insights that generate results? This is more complicated than what people originally thought and in Tooker’s, or you know about fifteen years, to realize that without an interpretation model, people do not really see the benefits of no marketing and that’s the subject of our second book.
We say yes, no marketing is great. We can measure all these things, but do not expect to get miracle results, especially if you’re not using a predictive model, and you know our second book addresses this issue, and it also gives a complete scientific picture of the model that we first published sixteen years ago. So so now we go an emotional level of detail about justifying, for example, yeah I’ll.
Just give you one example upon me that you’re, why do stories work when you’re in sales? Why do beach bar pictures more effective than text? So we simple yet scientific explanation about all the things that a lot of people were doing intuitively in the past, but they didn’t know where they were working mm-hmm. So let’s talk a little bit about that. Maybe I’d learn it a little bit more about the the model and and how you can actually start to measure and interpret these things.
Sure so, first of all, model is based on the work of Daniel Kahneman was the winner of the economy, Nobel Prize in 2002. More recently, in 2017, one of his students, guy by the name of Richard Taylor, also won the economy Nobel Prize, and you went further in this. So we’ve based our model on the work of these people and here is the fundamental discoveries that they’ve made, which is that we have two personalities if you want in other word, you know where everybody has multiple personality disorder and there is the rational us, and there Is the primal us Kahneman called it system, one for the primal us unconscious brains, the brain that helps you? You know deal with digestion, breathing a low-level body function and then, on top of that, you have a much more evolved brain called the brain and he called that system too.
And although we think that we make decision using our smart brain in reality, the impact of our primal brain on the rational brain is greater than the impact of the rational brain on the karmic way. So what we have done is we have studied in you know, for about 20 years now the working principles of that primal brain and because that primal brain by definition is ancient. You know we share that brain with very primitive forms of lives like reptiles, because that brain is so ancient and internet did not exist back then that brain can only be triggered by one of six stimuli.
So we teach people how this human eye works and our expertise is in translating those sixteen I into what people should do in sales marking and further than the stimuli. We have translated those stimuli into four steps that everybody should master, go ahead. No, I’m just going to ask you so so what you? What you’re saying is so, as you said, I mean we believe, because we all believe that we’re very highly sophisticated people that you know all the decisions we made.
You know we rationalize them and all of that kind of stuff, but what you’re saying is: there’s a it’s a lot more primal. How we do it may be our physiologically reactive things. I mean that actually is a much bigger driver of our decision-making process. Is that right, yeah, that’s correct! In fact, Antonio Damasio was when one of the world expert on the role of emotion of the brandy said we are not thinking machines that feel we are feeling machines that think so all of the emotions you know they win over.
All the rational aspect of our decision-making and even further than the emotion the issue of survival is key to all the decisions we make. The only thing is we’re not even aware of it but you’ll take prize. For example, I mean everybody right now, he’s happy to pay five dollars and get a cup of coffee at Starbucks. That mean stuff is pretty naira. However, if Starbuck was going to put the price of coffee at twenty dollars, people would start to hesitate to buy a coffee there.
Why? Because they know that he’s they spend too much money on their cup of coffee. They might not have enough money to pay the rent which down the road is the modern version of survival. So again, all these have all these phenomenons happen at the level of our unconscious, but they have biological manifestation, which are undeniable. You know if you look at even the most primitive forms of life. Primitive forms of life respond with the fight or flight syndrome, or the approach or with drugs in the first form of life is a unicellular.
And if you take a unicellular here and you put a drop of sugar close to it, that unicellular will be drawn to the sugar, because it’s a source of energy, so that unicellular will do everything he can to move closer to that stimulus of the sugar. Now take the same unicellular and drop a drop of acid close to it or you know them juice and that mini cylinder will move the way. Well, we even being still operate the same way.
You know, if you put in front of my nose a very desirable item, like the you know, the latest iPhone or the latest Nexus subscription or whatever my natural tendency will be. I will be drawn towards it and, of course it’s the job of Apple. If I buy the iPhone to create that positive emotion that draws me towards it, but those two meters that are created by companies that are trying to sell you something fundamentally, they operate at the same level as the phenomenon that happens in the unicellular.
It’s all about the biology of the equation yeah, it’s very interesting because I was just thinking cuz when I was having this conversation with some of the other day, and it always fascinates me one of the biggest purchases people make in their lives is a home right And yet think of the buying process for most people you go around, you look at a few houses and then you decide one because you get a feeling from it and you maybe only spend like 20 minutes in the place and next minute, you’re already you’re putting In bids and everything and – and you spend more time, as you say, probably deciding, will I get the iPhone S or X or whatever? Then you you something very interesting, you said you have the feeling that some things happen, but for most people guess what they don’t.
Even experience that feeling in others that feeling stays below the level of consciousness and at the end of the day, they might decide that they, like this house, because that house, at the exact same smell that the cookies that the grandmother cooked years ago mm-hmm, which is Why it’s a good tip for people is to always bake cookies before people come to look at your house, it’s a guess and they make sure the house is warm and they make sure you know that the light is on.
They make sure that the house is staged, so yeah absolutely right to show us what happens in Damacio said that he said we make emotional decisions and then we rationalize nice, but not vice versa. And again, I know you would take me a little longer than discussion, but we have all the scientific proof that this is undeniable. So what is it that most day, what would you be your advice? Obviously, you know get the book and read it, but what would be your advice to people who are looking at their marketing today? How can they tell whether they are movie, whether they are able to do what you’re describing here or whether they’re completely missing the mark and well yeah? I could give you tons of examples, but so this, the 16i, are very precise.
In our presentation I mean one of the stimuli is the concept of visual again. This is nothing new, because we all know that picture is worth a thousand words, but the you know the brain is mostly visual. People say that about 80 % of all brain activity is about processing images. By the way, if you look at the opposite of visual in terms of conceptual data, it would be text right. No, if I want to tell you about the concept of a cat, I can either show you a cat, or I can tell you the word cat.
The third way to communicate the concept of cat would be to hand you a cat, so people learn in three ways: it’s called visual auditory kinesthetic. We have three blogs for learning now most companies today when they communicate the value prop. They do it using words when you wrote our website and you see a long explanation about what they do. Well, unfortunately, that primal brain is mostly visual.
So what that mean? I’m not suggesting that you need to visual the product, but you need to come up with a visual that becomes a symbolic representation of the value proposition. So, for example, if I sell a really very complicated software solution to you know a large industrial organization and one part of my value proposition is it will save you money, then the concept of saving money? How can I represent that, so I may use a picture of a safe.
I may use a picture of a banknote, but that’s what I mean by this. You know being able to go the next step. I could say it saves you money, I’m using text. There is no emotion in it or I can actually show you a picture of a banknote. Give you another example. If the core of your value proposition is easy. Well, I can talk about easy all day long or I can show you a picture of the easy button from Staples or if your value drop is one-stop shopping.
I could use those. We saw me nice because the Swiss Army knife, you know, becomes the symbol of the screwdriver, the core corner and the plate. So going one step beyond the simple value pub that uses normally word using a visual escape. So that’s that’s one thing. Another concept would be you know today. Most people talk about the fact that they are a leading provider. Are the problem? Is all your competitors are saying the same thing so that does not trigger that primal brain? Because one of the similarities contrast, you know, the primal brain is any contrast to see that all the other guys do this, but you only only one will do that.
Now, of course, it’s easy to say, but if you have a commodity, how do you create that uniqueness and we didn’t run to people that they have to scratch their head? They have to find that uniqueness at all cost, to increase the amount of contrast so that your customers see all the other solution as the green apple and then suddenly, you become only write up and that only red apple is what triggers the decision of people yeah.
It’s it’s interesting because, as you say, I mean the you know, the perception at least in most buyers of the most products and services are highly commoditized today right and that they’re easily. So you can easily walk from one to the other and there’s no big big deal. So I see where you’re, today, more than ever, that concept of finding something that stands out for you is absolutely critical and what you’re saying there is it’s the only way you’re going to elevate yourself or catch anyone’s attention, otherwise, you’re going to stay in the in The swappable well imagine you’re selling water, and you have two competitors are selling similar water.
Then your probability to win the deal is only going to be one third. So if you want to go beyond that simple probability, you’ve got to find a way to say what’s different about your water mm-hmm and most people again when they are in the commodity business. Most people shy away from doing it because they are looking for the differentiation in the product itself and you won’t find it because by definition, it’s a commodity.
So you’ve got to find a way to say that you will deliver on the water for free or you will do you know your packaging is recyclable or you’re. The greenest provider of you know water or whatever and amazingly enough, regardless of if that differentiation, that uniqueness does not belong to the product, it will still create enough appeal in the brain of a customer that they might decide to buy from you.
So one of the things you say in in in the in in the material surrounding your book is obviously when somebody approaches it first and goes neuromarketing. Oh that sounds very complex. I don’t know if I could do that, but you’re saying that it. Actually, you have been able to make this simple, where people can actually understand how to do it and actually deliver it yeah. In fact, I think we made a big mistake when we named our first book neuromarketing that the subtitle was understanding the back button inside your customers brain.
We assumed that people would understand what no marketing means. So in our second book we decided that is not the right title and that’s why we named our second book, the persuasion code and it’s really about understanding how people used our brain to make buying decisions. And it’s really about not only using science but simplifying that science. You know Kahneman the guy one, that you’re kind of mean normal price I just mentioned was a very feller.
The only problem is he didn’t make his knowledge very accessible in all. His book is pH D plus plus level reading, and I had to read his book of course many times and most people that have opened up his book. They gave up after 30 percent of the book just because it’s so complicated, so a big part of our job. In connecting that making that connection between the world of neural, you know, researchers on the brain and the world of marketing was to simplify the equation.
In fact, what we found was the most difficult in that simplification was to make it visual. In other words, if you look at our book, we have one poster at the beginning of the book, which summarizes everything and for us to be able to come up with the right visual metaphor, to explain what we do. It took us a long long time. You know it’s a little bit like the teachers that we had at school right.
You could have a very, very smart teacher if he cannot make his knowledge accessible, everybody hates him, and nobody is good in any subject and the teacher that could make their knowledge more accessible, regardless of the complexity of the concept that they were teaching. They are the one that are really helpful, yeah ya know cuz. I remember one teacher from when I was very, very small and he used to draw little stupid little pictures in chalk and on the board.
You know and illustrate everything with these ridiculous little stick figures and doing stupid things. Everybody remembered everybody knew what he was talking about and you know why, because at that moment it is more appealing for the primal brain of the audience. Then the neocortex then the rational, when in fact I don’t know if your listeners can see the camera, but this is our old poster, so we know poster you know we had a stop point and we had an end point and that end point was the bite.
But another – and you know second book now: we’ve rendered the whole thing a little bit more sophisticated and we’re using a completely different metaphor. In fact, it’s a more scientific metaphor that we’re using excellent ok. So in the last couple of minutes, Patrick, is there anything else? You’d like to highlight about the book well, and just maybe I relate the book to what’s happening today in the news.
As you know, a lot of people are concerned about what Russia and China are doing, and you know a book is releasing the exact date of the book. Release is September 19th and will receive an order from China from the Chinese publisher. We already bought 5,000 copies of the book, and the second country that bought a book was Russia, so on one hand I’m very excited because it’s good for us. On the other hand, I am very concerned because it’s probably the last people I would wish they would know about that – sign they’re already really good, but I am worried about knowledge.
Well, I think the only way to to counteract that is for lots of people in Europe and America to buy it too. I mean you know when, when you understand how market ears are trying to influence your decision, then you can start to protect yourself. If you know against how people influence you, in fact, as a professional in that field, I am always questioning myself when I want to buy something. I’m going.
Okay, I’m mind buying it because the message was very good or I might buy it because it’s really going to help my life and sometimes I can say no, I don’t want it because I don’t need it sometimes, when the message is that good? Well, I still buy that ice cream. Although I really know it’s bad for me. Well, everybody needs a little bit of ice cream again. Well, listen! Patrick again! The book is the persuasion code.
How neuromarketing can help you persuade anyone anywhere anytime available on all the online booksellers it’ll be in the sales pop bookstore as well, and the release date is, as you said, September 18th. I think yes excellent, so I really encourage you to go out and if you get a chance to listen to Patrick speak he’s an excellent speaker too. So thank you very much for for joining us today, Patrick thank you and you have a good day yeah.
Thank you. This John golden says pop online says magazine. Pipeliner CRM see all again for an expert interview really soon, so I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved. In the conversation. Love to hear what you have to say:
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