Online Marketing

Graphic Design vs Website Design with Shane Rielly

My name is Calvin Deusen from ogle web design just outside of Fort Worth Texas and with me, as always, is my good friend and co-host Matt Siebert Kataria strategic design, how’s it going today Matt, it is going. I mean I’ve racked my brain with something to come up with to talk about during this little introduction segment, but man nothing really happens now.

It’s like a month of isolation to come up with something and still just know, yeah pretty much, but no I mean no news is good news right, that’s what they say at least so, keep on truckin there. You go well awesome. Well, today, we’re we’re joined by the lonely, Viking Shane here to talk with us today. All three of us are graphic designers turned web designers and we thought it would make a good conversation talking about kind of the pros and cons of each field and how he’s kind of integrated, both of them together in the services we provide so good morning, Shane.

How are you doing today doing very well? Thank you. It’s it’s not the morning for me so good afternoon, good evening and good night in the words of The Truman, Show yeah, I’m good. Thank you. It’s great to be with you guys. Well, we’re happy to have have you on here your your a stapl and all of our regular Facebook groups, so we’ve been interacting at a time, but we hadn’t jumped on a call together.

So I’m excited to do that for anybody who hasn’t been introduced to you. Yet why don’t you give us a little bit of background about? You know yourself what your business does, where people can find you all those cool things cool. So, as you said, my name is Shane Shane Riley. If you see my cinnamon, you don’t know how to pronounce it, and I my business is called lonely Viking and we basically do what everybody else.

Does that’s the real there’s your elevator pitch. We just do what everybody else does. Yeah I mean we’ve got like a we’ve, got a little elevator pitch thing. I guess: how does it go? I try to remember it. It’s a we help overworked business owners grow their business and get their laugh they’re nice. So we don’t have like an industry niche, but we try to like make this niche, that’s like where we try to help business owners to automate and to get better conversions on their sites and that’s how we push that.

So that’s what I do I live in in South Africa. I live in in Johannesburg and yeah. We you can catch me on YouTube. I have a little blog, where I do mostly kind of elemental tutorials and I’m starting to do a few other things there and I’m all over Facebook, like you said yes, you’re you’re good, follow so definitely go check out the YouTube blog, we’ll leave a will, leave A link to all that in the article description here, so so, let’s get into this, I think all three of us came to website design via graphic design, so I’ve told people before, but I worked in the print industry for many many years before I started doing This and kind of found this is a way that I could actually run my own business in the print industry is pretty expensive to do that, and the web industry is basically free to do that.

So I kind of made my way and tried to translate those things I learned in graphic design to web design and Matt. Your story is fairly similar right, yeah started, started with print design and and branding for years, and then probably about five years ago, started to dip my toes into web development and found that it’s a lot more forgiving in a lot of ways. Sure it boxes you in and others, but like overall.

As far as the business goes, it made a lot more sense to to really dive in a head. First in that direction, yeah I found the same thing but Shane. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about how you got started and and how your path has been? Oh, so I’ll try to keep the story short because I’m prone to going on very long, but basically, when I left school I am. I started my own business I wanted to. I wanted to start a surf clothing label, and so I worked for a year as a in a property valuation firm, and that was the worst most boring thing.

I’ve ever done, but I said I saved up my salary. I was living at home and then I started this clothing company and then I kind of needed to learn how to design like stuff for the black prints for the t-shirts and all that kind of stuff. So I did a whole bunch of stuff. I learned screen printing, I bought sewing machines and we had a little manufacturing thing going, but I kind of was self-taught graphic design like that, just kind of by necessity.

I had to design like the posters for our marketing and, and so I kind of got into graphic design and branding and stuff like that. I’ve never really been in the print industry. Like you guys, although you, you can’t do graphic design without experiencing the print industry. In some way shape or form, you know I did a lot of design for screen printing and then, when I ran that business for quite some time and then winner, when I was getting married, that business didn’t earn enough money to support being married, and so so I just I decided to sort of pivot and I started doing graphic design for clients, and so that’s when I started doing logos and print design for them that kind of thing and that sort of morphed into web, when one of the clients had done a logo For said, hey, can you build a website for me and I was like yeah sure, even though I had no idea how to build a website and then our promptly jumped on Amazon, bots, HTML, CSS and PHP books and then got studying, and I put the sky’ Website and that’s how I got into web at least you jumped into code, I just jumped onto Wix and was like yeah I’ll fix you a web site yeah.

So yes, so what’s a let’s talk a little bit about the pros and cons of graphic design versus web stuff, so I think there’s definitely some things that I’ve brought from my graphic design life into web that have made that transition a whole lot easier and I Think there’s some other things that that have always kind of bothered me about print design or have really started to bother me about like graphic design stuff.

Now that I can do web. So when we first start by by some of the things from both of you, I guess that that you think are really useful in web design coming from the background of a of a graphic designer. So what would you say to that Shane? I would say the very first thing is that changes are easily made right so like it. I remember once doing am designing business cards for a client and then having a couple of thousand of them printed, and then they had a mistake on them and I had to eat the cost of getting them reprinted.

That was like, if you make a sense at our branch yeah so like on a website. You make a mistake and then you know you get if you’re lucky you’ve got something like project huddle or WP feedback, and you get a little comment and you make a change if you’re not so lucky you get a word document. Those changes are easily made. I think for me, that’s probably like the first thing that comes to mind. How about you met yeah.

I’r definitely going to mirror that for sure, for example, Kyle and I actually worked on a project together and when I sent it to the the printers. Neither of us realized that the the file itself was RGB instead of CMYK, so we got like thousands of these rot cards sent to the client and all the colors were just completely wrong. Like the blacks were Gray’s, the greens were yellow it was. It was real.

Bad so, like you know, that’s definitely a downside to print or once you send that file off. It’s done it’s in concrete yeah, but at the same time you know I really do like like Kyle said earlier. I still do a lot of like print work and design work and anytime. Like an illustration or something like that comes in you know, it’s it’s one of those things that I love drawing. I love illustration, but I don’t really have the time what with managing clients and the business and all that stuff to do any of that on my own.

So you know I don’t take it on very often, but it’s a nice change of pace. So I think, like just the freedom, the graphic design gives you over Web Design, mostly I’m like the project types. You know there’s illustration: there’s package design, there’s branding, there’s there’s a whole bunch of stuff that you can do or is Web Design. It’s a little bit more niche-y and I think you know when I look at this, I think about just from my own journey and my own perspective.

What’s really helped me in coming from a graphic design background is you you have to spend a lot of time? Learning about things like negative space and typography and and all these kinds of things that just go into any kind of design principles yeah. So by the time I actually found website design a lot of those things were just in my nature. To do that. I think a lot of people just starting out first, the first thing they ever design is a website.

You know those principles aren’t already ingrained, so I think there’s a lot of translation. You know if you’re somebody that’s looking at website design as a possibility. You’re, a graphic designer and you’re looking at web being a possible move for you, I think there’s a lot of things that translate across from from graphic design to web design, and you don’t find anything else, besides kind of those those few that I mentioned, that makes Me think of like the opposite problem, where, like you come to web design and everything’s kind of like grid based and positioning, is relative for the most part, unless you want to run into other problems and use absolute positioning all right, but so like.

I guess I’m not answering your question, but I’m moving to another point, but you can come from that background and have that knowledge. And then you want to just have the freedom of like placing something wherever you want it, and then you find out that well in web design. Although, if you, if you know what you’re doing you can get get around that, but for the most part, when you starting out you’re like this thing’s got ta go in a grid.

That luck has to be in this certain position, but it doesn’t look right compositionally. I want to move it and I can’t do that and so the learning curve from that point of view becomes kind of steep and you can’t just take your your print knowledge and just slap it into where. But I think what you were saying: it’s a huge help to understand, composition and typography, and space like I find my business partner is a developer and he often helps out on like the design side or actually building the the websites, and I’ve always got to tell Him like add more space more space like pattern just want to fit everything in yeah and then he so now he says to me: well, I’m now I add the space, I think should be there and then I add 50 % more so that you weren’t telling Me to add more space, a lot of that stuff translate yeah exactly so.

A lot of that stuff is great, like you learn all of that those design principles and bring them over and that’s great, but there’s also the converse where there’s some constraints on web design. That hold you back a little if you’ve got that background, so learning, let’s merge those two things is important and when I worked in in the print industry, it was mainly in sign shops. So when we were dealing with we’re dealing with really large format, stuff right, so big billboards and big building signs and stuff, so when I would have to size something in Illustrator, it would be by inches or by feet right.

So that was always the system. I was using to measure everything was inches or feet so when you get to web and it’s a completely different way of looking at it. So still when we’re talking about like relative sizes and stuff, it’s still hard for my brain to like comprehend. All that, because I’m used to things being there, either six inch tall letters or they’re, not six inch tall letters. You know it doesn’t depend on big.

You know the surface area is right, so that that’s been a really challenging thing to kind of just take over that habit. I think and kind of jumping back to an earlier comment. The whole, like you, know, building as a designer you see like the absolutely gorgeous websites, or at least the website mock-ups on dribble and places like that, where they’re they’re, gorgeous and they’re, clearly a graphic designer that’s putting them together, because once you start like really looking At it, it would be such a nightmare to actually build.

I think that, like kind of illustrates that fact over again yeah – and you know when I when I first started doing this – I I didn’t have the I guess, just the the tools in place and I didn’t know my tools well enough to just jump into a Tool like Elementor and start designing right away, so the first websites I did. I designed them all in Adobe, Illustrator. First, because that’s the program. I know, like the back of my hand like if, if you can do it in Adobe Illustrator, I can make it happen.

You know so I started designing all everything there then having to recreate it in in web and kind of use that as a transition to like move from this is where I’m comfortable to now in web. Like now, it’s very rare, I hope, an illustrator to mock up a website or something, but have you all done some of those kinds of things? Have you seen yourself doing that I do a lot of pen and paper sketches before going, but rarely I’ll build something in in Photoshop or illustrator.

First, I’m kind of like for lack of a better word, I’m kind of lazy. So I don’t like to do things to us, so our generally just dive in and just start building. If it’s just me working on a project, I would just dive in and just start building changing CSS. Now it’s elemental, it’s easy, like oh people build or whatever you just. I just build straight in there, but even before, when I was doing WordPress sites with CSS and HTML, I would just jump in and then change the code and refresh the page, and just do it like that.

I was never keen to do stuff twice. Obviously, if I’m working with someone else and I had to supply them a design or whatever, then I would do it in Photoshop generally, not illustrator, so much but yeah sure yeah, I don’t think illustrator is the preferred choice. It’s just what I spent all my time in, but I will say like one of the biggest things I’ve seen and it’s something that I didn’t realize was a problem for people until we were in these communities – and I see other people struggling with it.

It’s something that I never think about. You think about things like when your customers send you a logo and it’s you know a bad size or it’s pixelated or you need a white version of it or this or that you know. I don’t even think anything about opening up the logo in Illustrator most time you can recreate it pretty quickly and then make whatever kind of file type you need yeah. I need to do photo shopping two things.

That’s not a big deal. I can just jump in and do those things so some of those tools you have in the graphic design world just make life so much easier in web design, because I think a lot of people are subbing that kind of work out or using crappy files that They probably shouldn’t, be, you know, yeah, like a logo. From a Word document, I had to actually learn to to do like stuff in Illustrator, because I would get people’s logos for screen printing and they would send it in like a word document or like a tiny JPEG.

And then you obviously can’t screen print that because you need to separate the colors and you got to have it vector, so you can make it the right size and stuff. So that’s how I learned illustrator in the first place, but definitely that’s helpful and, like you say you don’t really even notice you get that file and you’re like oh, this doesn’t work and you fire up illustrator or Photoshop and like 20 minutes later, you’ve got something That you can use – and I think people who don’t have that background – I just like back and forth with the client.

Do you have a vector version of this or whatever and it becomes a nightmare yeah. I don’t even ask anymore if I can do it. I just knock it out, but I mean I don’t know I don’t know about you, man. I don’t always pay attention to what tools you have open on your computer there, but if I’m designing a website, I almost always have Photoshop open, because I’m resizing photos things and I didn’t really have illustrator open as well, because I might be making some icons or Making some kind of pattern for a background or whatever it may be.

Are you the same way Matt yeah, the majority of the time both of those are open for sure yeah? So I wonder what it looks like for the web designer that doesn’t have those tools or similar tools. I know not everybody’s on Adobe’s expensive plans, but yeah. That would be something, and I will say I think, one of the biggest benefits that I found in this transition – and this is you know some people will identify with this, and some people won’t as far as working in a print shop, doing graphic design stuff.

I have enough creative skills to make something look nice, but where, where I was actually most valuable, is the fact that I could. I knew how to use the programs really well and get things done really quick and they would look nice. I’r not I’m not an artist, you know, so I’m not making things that are that are are super artistic are super creative and that actually lends itself really well to web, because you don’t really want a functional website to be a piece of art.

Necessarily all the time it needs to be functional. First, like it can be beautiful too, but a lot of times. That just means it’s, you know simplistic or user friendly and stuff like this. So, where I kind of I have always felt, I lacked in creative ability and artistic ability. A lot of those things are masked by websites just by nature of what you have to do in that kind of work. Have y’all noticed that yeah and so the the type of the type of artwork that you’ve done in the past Shane? You know you talked about doing screen, printing and stuff like that.

What what kind of what kind of tools, or I’m not really tools, but what kind of habits have you formed that you think are the most valuable that have translated to web yeah? I guess I would say, like I mentioned, just being able to use illustrator and turn stuff into into vectors and stuff, I would say, that’s super valuable and then just understanding design from a different point of view, like not.

A lot of people have had experience with designing for clothing print, you know, and so sometimes that can come in really handy luck and give you a different perspective on design. For example, when you doing screen printing, like how many colors you have in a design, affects the cost of production hugely. So if you had a one color print on a t-shirt, it’s much cheaper than like a four five or six color prints on a t-shirt, and so now you’ve got these constraints that you have to design within.

I’ve got a one color background, which is the t-shirt, and my budget allows me to only make one color design for the prints. So now I’ve got two colors the background and the image on the foreground and I’ve got to make something. That’s appealing and looks good, but I’m only allowed to use two colors and obviously in Webb you don’t have that constraint, but you’ve got you. You’ve got the experience, that’s taught you how to work within those constraints, and it opens up your horizons to like stuff.

That might look good, even though you don’t have to do it like that. So I think of this example like when Photoshop first got the bevel and emboss thing rights, everybody did that it was like an exactly right and so then tools like elemental and stuff come along and they they make like motion possible. You know like those animations with the scroll, animations and or now you can do gradient backgrounds and then everyone’s AK gradient backgrounds on everything and when you scroll stuff, is just going to like move all over your screen.

And so I think, having like to work within constraints, taught me that you don’t always have to use like the later trend, and you don’t always have to make something buzzy to make. It look good, actually, a lot of the time stripping down and simplifying. It is going to make a design work better and it’s going to communicate to the viewer better what you want to communicate, so I think like that’s probably for me.

The main thing is that to first try to think like how can I make this look good within some constraints and then not be tempted to just use all the bells and whistles all the time? You know you guys feel about that. No, I agree, and and the the bevel and emboss is a good, a good example of that yeah. So, like I said, I’ve kind of transitioned, my company, the only people I’m doing any kind of graphic design work for our existing customers that have just done graphic design, work for in the past and pretty much other than that.

If somebody calls calls me up or emails me, I turn that kind of work away or refer them on, and I took all that kind of stuff off. I used to have pages for graphic design and stuff on my website, and I took all that off long ago and the main reason for me on all that was a business decision and me and Matt have talked about this a little bit and I’d like to Get your thoughts too, as somebody who I haven’t chatted with this about, but to me web seems so much more profitable than graphic design and and Matt.

How have you seen that in your business, 100 % most of the the print work that I do is almost considered doing at a loss? Almost I I still do it because one it’s clients, like you, said that you know they’ve, always they’ve hired me in the first place to do stuff like that and then the stuff that I take on like other outside new new clients. Those are usually the projects that just sound fun and if I’ve got you know a little bit more free time I’ll take them on, because I still do like doing it, but but no you’re you’re, absolutely right now, maybe maybe we’re just bad at pricing.

Graphic design. So what do you say to all that Shane? I think I’m definitely in agreement. The first thing that comes to mind is that it’s very difficult to generate recurring revenue with graphic design right web lends itself, because someone has this like. Hopefully, what is an asset in their website that that’s an income generating tool for them? They’re willing to pay monthly for somebody to make sure that that thing’s running smoothly and it’s working and it’s it’s updated and all of those things that we do in our care plans.

So to get some some recurring revenue from web design. I’ve found is way easier than graphic design like huh. I still haven’t thought of anything like how do you and if their services like design, pickle and do designer and those things where someone can get actually pretty good graphic design for a very low cost. And it’s hard to compete with that, so I don’t really do graphic design so much, although I still offer branding like logo, design and brand development because mostly because I really love it, but I priced it very high, so I probably get I think last year I Had three projects the whole year doing that, so it’s definitely not bread and butter, but I still do it because I love it, but I’ve priced it to the point where most inquiries I get.

They think that I’ve gotten crazy. So I mostly like those those inquiries. Just turn into nothing and I’ll, get like one every now and then who sees the value but yeah. The recurring revenue for me is that the biggest thing like I think, they’ve been times in my business, where we would have had to shut down. If we didn’t have recurring revenue that covers like all the expenses and stuff, so it’s funny.

You say that because I want to think back to the sign shops I worked in. I don’t think I’d ever heard the phrase like monthly recurring revenue that wasn’t part of my like business vocabulary, because we had nothing like that and we we would go to wilds wild swings and business and we knew that December would be a really slow month. So we kind of planned for that all year, but yeah we would. We would have months where we’d sell twenty thousand dollars.

Then the next month we’d sell a hundred thousand dollars and that’s just kind of how it was because there was there was no kind of product we could really offer to even that out for people. So that’s that’s! Not something! I’d really looked back on and thought about. You know in just graphic design in general, it’s really hard to do that. Recurring revenue type stuff, yeah. I think pricing is really difficult to like.

I know in my in my area my local area, like it’s really difficult to to get potential clients to see the value of like you know, branding and and and like full-fledged logo design. I don’t think the vast majority of potential clients out there. You know over $ 600 is absolutely like out of the picture for for any kind of key, and I think about a lot of times. The the main reason for being a business decision for me was how much more money I can make in an amount of time.

So if somebody comes to me and says I need this poster designed my design process is I’m going to sit here in Photoshop Illustrator and throw a million things at the wall until all of a sudden one little thing will click, sometimes that happens in five minutes And sometimes I have to walk away from it for a day and come back and try again and and that’s that’s always kind of just been the way I design things, and sometimes it comes quick and sometimes it doesn’t but designing a poster or flyer or brochure.

Something could be something that takes me. I might have six or eight hours worth of time into that and designing a trifold brochure. I think the last time I did that I charge like 250 bucks, so $ 250 for six or eight hours with the work is not a really good payday, when I’ve also had web projects that come in where the customer supplied me with all the copy, and I had all the assets I needed and I built their entire website in the day and charge $ 2,500, and I just look at those legs as a business decision that it’s it’s just not nearly as profitable and you walk away from that.

They build most likely with recurring revenue from there on anyway. So so, if there’s people out there listening right now that that have been doing graphic design and are here in the admin bar because they’re kind of checking out web for the first time. Let’s try to think of some of the advice we could give them. You know that we learned over time so Matt. Let me start with you what what are some of the things you would try to study first about web coming from a graphic design background.

I think jumping into like, like UI UX is probably one of the the best things you can do right out the gate, because you know like it’s already been mentioned today. I think the the the not using every tool to your your you know. That’s that’s like readily available to you, like paring things down kind of going in a minimal route and really thinking about how a user or a visitor like uses the website and how what you’re doing is either going to help or hinder them, because it is an Interactive medium versus a print, which is you know to a lesser extent, interactive like sure you can change what what folds on a trifold you see first, but you know it’s it’s it’s pretty straight forward, so I think that learning like how people interact with with what You’re building is probably one of the best things to learn right out.

The gate. Yeah that’s a mind. Shift too. I remember I remember having to like Google a lot of things about UX until that whole thing made sense to me because, like you’re saying with you know, if I was designing a business card or brochure or assignment hung on the wall, I would think about things Like you know, legibility can. Can we read this from a certain amount of distance and and that’s kind of a form of user experience? Can the user driving down the road read this sign, but we never used? We never used the term user experience you know.

So I think, that’s a big mind shift they’re, just trying to think about these things, as it’s kind of like you said, interactive things, people are engaging with is a lot different, so same question to you Shane. What would what would be some things? Some advice you can offer Pia and Matt Matt went with uh. I asked him about some kind of mindset, type things. What would you say? You talked about you Dovan and started learning some code and stuff, so kinda on that side of things, which is going to be very foreign to a graphic designer.

What kind of resources our stuff would you recommend people check out? So I think for me the very first thing would be CSS, because it’s the language, it’s very human, readable language. So it’s easy to pick up, but it’s also the one that is most closely attached to how things look. So if you’re a graphic designer coming into Web Design, that’s for me the obvious thing to get stuck into, because that’s the one that affects what you know the most.

You know so definitely CSS and I guess, if you’re in the WordPress ecosystem and picking up a little bit of PHP is a good idea, because even just to be able to read error codes with PHP, you know like your site drops down and at the top. There’s a white bar with some error codes, in which you look at it the first time and you think like this means nothing and then, but I think, with with the way Web Design seems to be going with all drag-and-drop.

It’s it’s not too important to learn. Php but CSS for me, is a huge one and in JavaScript or jQuery, is probably the next thing to go for, because that’s also something that really controls like the visual aspects of of what’s going on in the design but yeah. I think I would dive into CSS and then one thing I can highly recommend is a plugin called macro Thema. Yes, if you’re on the WordPress ecosystem macro FEMA is incredible: it’s a you.

You fire it up. It’s got a it’s got a visual representation of your site and then you can literally make changes to the CSS using little visual buttons and that changes immediately and you can see those changes. And so what I love about, that is that you you’re you’re, accessing it and doing it in a visual way, which you’d be used to as a as a graphic designer but you’re also learning CSS, while you’re doing it and almost unknowingly learning the CSS.

While you’re doing it because you’ll click on like the the little icon that shows borders and you’ll see it come up and you you tap in how much like border radius, there should be, but you’re actually learning that well, there’s a CSS rule called border radius and That controls have the rounded corners you know so for me, macro thema. I don’t really need it because I know CSS, but I use it anyway because it speeds things up and I’ve also learned like CSS rules that I didn’t know existed.

So that’s. That would be something I highly recommend if you’re coming from from graphic design. I still I mean I still struggle my way through any kind of code, including CSS, but using micro. Themer definitely taught me a lot about, like you said you know, being able to visually click on something and then just tell it. I want it to be. Blue was really easy inside micro, famers UI, but it has it spits out all that code and you kind of see that and it’s it’s certainly advantageous to to kind of study that and see what those changes are doing.

You know, through the code I’ve kind of forced myself most recently to get in there and at least try to write the CSS like try to find the selector try to write out the CSS of what I’m going to do, and you know maybe 30 % of The time it actually works and the rest of time I fail, but at least try to get in there and do it and just experiment with some things, because I mean it’s completely. I spent 15 years doing graphic design and didn’t think about these things at all.

You know so it’s it’s kind of hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but I agree with you that be the first one. I would tell people to jump in as well so I’ll be interested to see here in the group. How many people kind of came from the same background from from graphic design, web design tools like WordPress and then now even tools like Elementor make it really easy like? If, if tools like Elementor didn’t exist, I’d still be a graphic designer I’d probably still be working at a print shop because, like I said print print stuff’s expensive it’d be hard to start my own business, doing that especially harder than it is to do web stuff.

So because all these tools exist today, it’s fairly easy to make that transition. If it’s something you’re interested in so I’d be interested to see how many people in the group you know, like the three of us made that same transition so Matt before I wrap this up and we get out of here today. You have any final thoughts or anything. I did not cover yeah, actually so Shane when, when you started doing your t-shirt, designs and stuff like what what about what year was that that was 1999? Okay.

So I’m wondering because I started like almost the same way like I wanted to create, like some sort of a t-shirt, design business, which I think is one of the the things that a lot of like graphic designers try to do. First, because it is like super artistic – and you know it’s – it’s like an easier model to follow, so I want to say like around 2006 2007, I joined the community and I’m wondering if you you’d ever like solder around line, I think it was.

It was empties. First and then Minty’s when they rebranded yeah either those ringabel no. But I, if I, if I understand what it is, there were others like that. I can’t remember what they were called, but it it was like. I was the sack blank t-shirts and stuff right that you could do designs for so empties it was. It was like a community forum of like some of the best illustrators I have ever seen, and everybody that was there did like.

Primarily, you know three to four color designs. They worked a lot with, like you know, bands like My Chemical Romance the ones with the the big all over printing and like to see these guys. You know produce this stuff on like a weekly basis. Just this. This amazing artwork that really didn’t take them that long, but also when they posted their designs. They did like the breakdown the process like why they did what they did, and I think the biggest benefit for me was that you could post your own art and yeah.

There were definitely big personalities in that in that site, some of which were kind of hard to handle and they would tear your artwork apart, like absolutely like to the core like just break it down, but in the best way like they were, never mean about it. But I think that, like that’s skyrocketed, my my like layout design and, like you know the use of white space, the use of like patterns and texturing and, like all of that stuff, to have like a community like that.

So I like it’s just something that I thought, maybe you well, it’s kind of like the admin bar right for for full web designers. Although they’re not too many people tearing designs apart ya, know for sure like we have actually considered doing some critiques before. But I don’t know how well it plays yeah. I get the whole like well, Who am I to do that? You know yeah probably ought to stay away from that yeah, but it doesn’t stop me and Matt from jumping on a call on Zune, privately and destroying things, because we yeah for sure our own stuff too, like if I’m struggling with a layout.

I just hop on zoom with Kyle, I’m like what am I doing wrong here? What am I missing? I’ve been looking at this for far too long like yeah. It’s amazing, though, how quickly somebody else, especially you know, might have a lot of similarities in the way we design and obviously our background and stuff, but how quickly the other one can. One of us can snap the other one out of funk like that, like we’ll just change this to two different columns and put this over here and you’re like yeah, that’s, okay, yeah, it’s all fixed now! So I think a partner in crime is nice and all that kind of stuff.

That’s for sure yeah, it’s great all right guys! Well, Shane! I definitely appreciate you jumping on here. It’s certainly good to connect with you in in a more direct way. It’s just back and forth in comments before we get out of here, everybody again where they can find you and connect with you the best ways to follow along with you and lonely. Viking cool. Yes, as I said, my youtube blog is probably the best place to see the content that I’m putting out I’m on Instagram, it’s just slash or atlona barking, and I put the same articles on Instagram TVs.

You know if you like YouTube or Instagram, and then I got a little Facebook group, that’s kind of like it’s called the creative prose community and it’s just for people in creative industry and I’m pretty active on there, but other than that. I try to stay off social media, I picked two and then I picked YouTube and Facebook and I thought I’m going to go for these in 2020 and then, like I, just left Twitter and stuff alone, yeah everyone so I’ll get a wild hair to do Twitter.

Stuff and then I just it’s too much for me – you got to spend all day on Twitter for it to make any sense, I’m just bad at social media all around alright guys. Well, hopefully, this this chat was helpful to you today. If you have any questions drop them in the group, I’m sure all three of us would be glad to help you out as best as we can, and if this show helps you in any way. The easiest way to support us is to share and, like the content, subscribe to our blogs and use our affiliate links, it’s all free.

It takes a little time and it greatly helps support the show. We will see you all inside the group. Bye-Bye see you


By Jimmy Dagger

Find out my interests on my awesome blog!

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