My name is John Gollum from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined by Brandon vos, who is the director of training and operations at Black Swan group? How you doing Brandon I’m doing very well, I’m happy to be be here with you today great and where are you today Brandon, so I’m just outside the DC area and in College Park, I’m actually in my home office.
I got my dogs here and the office sleeping here next to me, excellent, excellent, that’s a good way to that’s a good way to start your day. Okay, so Brandon tell me a little bit about how you got into negotiations, and especially, I want you to talk about how you have taken a unique approach of adop: adapting the FBI, hostage, negotiation techniques to the corporate space, all right, yeah, very good.
So obviously you know through my father Chris boss and author, I never split the difference that being exposed to how he communicated with people and learned to communicate with people at a young, age and III have a sales background myself before I was working with Black Swan. I did I did retail sales for Macy’s and business business sales with Verizon and so in to apply it in that environment and then being able to grow within the black swan group.
And you know, and this speech can’t ask for a better mentor for sure and obviously for those of you who may not know you know and Brenda’s dad. You know Chris is a hostage negotiator, a long time working with the the FBI and, and so you decided to take that hostage. Negotiation and adapted so tell me about how you would adapt something like that, because, obviously there’s a little bit, the stakes are a little bit higher in hostage negotiation than in an average sales negotiation.
Right I mean you, you would think right. We think about how how the stakes are higher, because there’s lives on the line and something that Chris always likes to mention and the guys I’ve been introduced to through him. They talk about how they know for a fact that business people have dealt with more irate individuals, yelling and and storming out and and and causing a scene, and they ever had to deal with in hostage negotiation.
And I think really it starts with just the approach right. So tell me about that. So how do you? How do you go into negotiate because number, one there’s different types of negotiations and, obviously more than that there’s different people have different approaches to negotiation. So when you go into a negotiation, how do you? How do you start so you can set it up as effectively as possible? Well, the biggest thing is you know if there’s any negatives that might be present, you want to get those out of the way early and and in human nature we want to deny negatives.
You know we want to say things like. I don’t want you to think we’re. Our price is too high and you know I don’t want you to think that we’re jerks and I want you to feel like we let you down and those those are actually denials of negatives and that’s that’s. What inflame the situation and our approach is really to address those first and then once you’ve gotten past that point you build trust and rapport you get to the place where we call trust based influence.
You get there quickly by sounding the other side out. You know Stephen Covey, put it great and seek first to understand, and that gets you a really long way really fast right, and so so, when you were, when you were going to negotiation, how do you I mean? Often you know your negotiation, sometimes with more than one person. So how do you uncover what what roles they’re they’re playing and also what their style is, because, obviously you have to adapt it to the different people right right? Exactly we talked about the different negotiator types.
The assertive, the accommodator and the analyst and plainly put it’s it’s a fight, flight or or make friends, and when people are backed into a corner and they got real skin in the game, their default response is going to be one of those three things and, and That said, you got a handle each one, a little bit differently and and then in a team negotiation, you’re. Obviously there’s a high chance you’re going to have multiples of each type at the table.
You know two or three assertive x’ and an accommodator. It could be, it could be a mix, oh yeah, that’s a big part of it and, and one of the first ways to really start identifying. It is just simply how they approach the negotiation or do they do. They sit down and they’re somewhat standoffish and they look like they’re waiting to hear what you have to say do they come in and they guys they want to lay down the groundwork.
You know they got objectives, they want you to know. They come right at that, or do they seem much more like? I don’t want to say beating around the bush, but the type that’s you know. I really want to focus on how the last three months been for you right. I mean you know. We’ve been we’ve become aware of you, you know, why do our things work and you know so there are different types of conversations and you got ta with that.
Accordingly, your circumstance drives your strategy right. So let’s take the assertive right, because that’s the one that probably throws people the most right. You know the the other two were probably a little bit more at ease with, even though we have us need to have strategies for dealing with them. So how do you deal with the assertive baby, the PERT? You go into negotiations and immediately they’re.
You know they’re up and they’re in your face and they’re ready to get going yeah. I think that’s a great question because again it’s human nature. Whenever we imagine going to the table, we imagine that that assertive you know shark, like a tagging person, that’s going to corner us right and how do we defend ourselves right? How do how do we grapple with that? That type of individual and really those those those types of people haven’t, have a real, deep internal desire to make sure that you hear them, I mean really where they’re coming from subconsciously is I want to make sure that this person hears me and I’m going to Do whatever it takes to make it happen, and it’s going to start by me being very directing and coming at them like a freight train, mmhmm yeah, that’s an interesting point.
So so, obviously, then the key is to allow them to be heard and kind of draw out what it is. That’s that’s that they really want to say right. Well, that’s exactly at me and you put it a great way because you know our negotiation approach starts with allowing the other side to be heard and for all intents and purposes, this type of negotiator plays right into that very well, because that’s all they want to Do and so some of it is you got to put your own justifications aside right.
It’s you, you know you want to get to the table and say your own piece. You got to let that go, especially when you’re dealing with this with this type. The other thing is as soon as they feel that they’re understood their trust, for you automatically goes through the roof. I mean it’s you instantly become. I can do business with this person because I can tell they get what I see mm-hmm. So the interesting thing about that is obviously, if you break through that, the negotiations can often then move forward.
Are they at a pretty good pace right now, when you have the analyzer on the other side of the table right, okay, so not so confrontational! You know much lower key, but then the frustration it can be on your side right because you’re going, oh, my goodness, is this person ever going to move or they’re going to analyze this to death? Yes, yeah! That’s that’s it right and analysts will self admit that you know they.
They have a paralysis by too much analyzation right, they’re, just say the analysis, paralysis and so and and one of the big things to understand what this type of person is number one they’re very skeptical in nature right. You know they’re very, very slow to trust and they need silence. They need time. You know the the the thing that they hate the most is to make a snap decision mm-hmm and they look at time.
As you know, the best use of time is is as long as it takes to get it right right. You know we had, we were doing it Kris and I were doing it. Try my dad – and I were doing a training recently with it with a great group and and something that that someone in that group mentioned to us is. I need to make sure that I can live with this decision three to five years from there. You know. That’s that’s a huge part of their thought process going in like it’s and and and the emphasis that they put on that is more just based on the way that they approach the process in general.
So this is the challenge, for you, then, on the other side of the table, obviously is to give them the space to do their analysis, but obviously, at the same time you also want to move them forward right and let’s face it when you’re in says in Negotiations, silence and giving people time in space. It doesn’t always come naturally to you right. We have an aversion to the silence part right I mean we can have talk about something and then maybe you’re and analyzer.
You need a few moments to processes, but we hate silence right, that’s that’s it! It’s a human nature response. We want to feel silence and if there’s sounds we feel like. Maybe we did something wrong. We might have said the wrong thing and with this particular type they naturally need time to process, and so you know that’s it when we talk about different types dealing with each other right, the accommodator only uses silence to show anger right.
An accommodator is so focused on a relationship you’re only going to go silent on you when they’re when they’re mad at you they feel like. I have you pushed me too far. I can’t do this anymore, and so in dealing with an analyst they’re going to go silent anyway and for an accommodator it’s. What did I do wrong? How did why did I, you know? Why did I make them with drunk? Where did I screw this up and then that that can be really hard on the mind in the moment and so number one going in, knowing that the analyst is going to need their time to process you, you can’t push them that’ll, just cause them to dig Their heels, they dig their heels in more and then, of course, their emphasis on on data, and so analyst analysts don’t want to negotiate.
But they love to have dispassionate conversations about facts right, and so you can get to that very easily by using the skill that we refer to as labels, because another thing about them them being very skeptical. Naturally they’re skeptical of questions. They don’t like to answer questions fully and completely because they’re afraid they may give too much up so tell me about the labels piece, then yeah, so the the label simply put it it’s a quick way to execute a bit of tactical empathy as it were, and And it’s a it’s simply a verbal observation or a statement that starts with it seems like it sounds like when looks like, or it feels like tremendous amount of people.
We work with having I’ve gotten a long way with using things like it feels like and so foundationally in the in the hostage negotiation world. This skill was used to hit on emotions. Specifically, we all know we can’t avoid emotions in negotiation right, there’s no way around it. So a simple label is something like it seems like you’re angry. It seems like you’re, very hesitant. You know those can get you very far very quickly right, because what I like about that is you’re, not you’re, not making a definitive statement you’re just saying well, this is what it feels like.
I’m maybe I’m wrong or tell me how you actually feel so you’re, giving it a you’re giving it over to the other person to to express how they feel so. Tell me about the accommodator right because, like most people would say, oh I’ve got an accommodator in the negotiation, I’m SAS. So why is that not? Why is that not true? So there’s there’s a lot of reasons and, interestingly enough and my personal opinions, and when I like to talk about this with clients and and and when we’re coaching of the three types, I think the accommodator actually has the least amount to learn.
As far as an application of tactical empathy or emotional intelligence, because they’re naturally built that way, they’re naturally built to really actually care about. You know what what you think and how you feel about stuff and the flip side of that is they’re seen in society as pushovers right, because an accommodator can get carried away with caring about you so much that they compromise their own position to take care of.
You, and so you know they can get this reputation of being pushed around and really the the dangerous the dangerous negotiator is, is a natural accommodator that has really learned how to analyze and assert when they need to so those those can be, very especially when they Come from the accommodator side, naturally they haven’t had to learn but um, but yeah they’re, I mean very powerful. I mean I would always want an accommodator at the table with me.
You know if I’m going into a team negotiation, I’m going to want to have an accommodator as a second mover, every time without question yeah. So it seems at the end of the day that if two effective negotiations you either need to learn and be able to adapt these different types at the right time or if that is something maybe you’re, just an assertive person who can’t do it, then you bring In somebody who can complement you, that’s that’s a great point.
I mean that’s a great point. I mean they. They say: there’s lots of studies out there that, in order to have a good team, you got to have people that think differently right. You can’t have a team made up of people to think to say not going to accomplish as much and so yeah. It’s a great point, that’s a great point and as far as executing yes, you have to incorporate all three styles and to what you do.
There’s there’s some directions: you’re going to want to lean a little bit heavier than others right, you’re going to want to be in the accommodator set, or at least tone of voice. More often than not, but really the focus is, how do we see it in other people right going back to understanding and looking at it from their point of view, we’re caught up in how we’re executing sometimes that actually right, the muscle memory doesn’t kick in.
So we got to build that muscle memory and we see the assertive okay. I know I got to go in with mirrors. I’ve got to sound them out for 10 or 15 minutes, because they’re going to have things they need to say right is it’s an accommodator? They may promise me too much. You know I got ta focus on calibrated questions that really dig into implementation right. How is that going to work? How are you going to make sure that happens? How do we incorporate all these different mindsets into this decision-making process, and so you know that you got it with that right, a circumstance going to drive your strategy yeah, and so do you think that enough people put put enough thought into what they want out of A negotiation because other people just go in to negotiate and they think it’s about one thing only and that’s about getting the best price on one side of the table or getting the lowest spear lowering the price or higher in the whatever.
But people tend to micro focus on that one outcome: that’s it yeah! It’s a great term microfocus yeah! We get. We get tunnel vision when we think that it’s only about one thing and the the black swan group, I mean the the name comes from the idea of finding the black swan finding that the piece of information that, if uncovered, would completely change your outcome, and we Say there’s at least three to five of those in every interaction, so you’re going with the idea of sounding them out, but really it’s it’s kind of a selfish purpose of I’m here to be smarter.
There’s things, there’s information that you have that there’s no way! I can get it unless you tell me, so how do I put you in a place where you trust me enough probably be able to expose some of that stuff and then once we aren’t an iron that out it’s going to completely change our destination. So if I’m caught up in the destination ahead of time, I may miss an opportunity to bend up in an even better place.
Yeah and let’s face it like people. Can people can tell when you’re just trying to push them over the finish line and when they’re not ready to go and it and like anybody? If somebody pushes you, what do you do you start to dig your heels in yeah, yeah, again, human, it’s a human nature response like a you. You will be obstinate just to prove a point. Yeah right i-i’ll hurt me because I know it hurts you and that’s good enough, so, which is the opposite of a win-win and at the end of day, at the end of the day at your negotiation, you should really be looking for a win-win here right.
Well, I think it you know it’s it’s. It even goes beyond that, because you know when win can easily be interpreted as both sides felt like they lost, so it was probably a good deal, and actually there are people out there. You’ll find that’ll say things like that, and and really more so it’s you know. I think we like to look we like to look at it is how do we both prosper at it? How do we make? How do we go beyond like we made such a great deal that you want to recommend this to people in your network, because our deal was so seamless? This things went so well right.
How do how do we turn this one deal into all of a sudden? Now we got a community of individuals and those communities are out there. You know in pockets, we’re all doing business together and we’re slowly starting to take over the world right. How do you get to that point? Which then, obviously, if you go to a process like that and have that kind of outcomes and your chance of getting referrals and all of that go up right? Because people have a good, have a good feeling? That’s exactly what they they refer to, that right.
It’s like the Platinum level of business development and that’s referrals, word-of-mouth and and the more you create that it’s a snowball effect, perfect, listen, Branden! This has been fascinating and we’re bumping up against the end of our time. But before we go, can you tell everyone a little bit more about you about the Black Swan group and how they can learn more sure, very good, so our website is www.
Pevs.Com out into this month, but one one big way we keep in touch with people is Through our we clean newsletter that comes out on Tuesday mornings at about 9:00 a.M. Your local time, so you can sign up on the website or you can text FBI empathy. That’s all caps! Fbi, empathy, one word two, two, eight two, two eight and it’ll prompt you to your phone to to sign up quick and easy. That’s a great way to keep in touch with what we’re doing and things we’re exposing community to fantastic, listen Brenda.
This has been great, been a pleasure talking with you. My name is John golden from sirs pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM SEO for another expert interview really soon.
Websites help sell stuff! Do you have one?
Jimmy's Internet Marketing Business Blog 