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Ultimate Sales with Hal Becker | Sales Experts Insights

My name is John golden from sales pop online sales magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m delighted to be joined from cleveland ohio by hal becker. How you doing how so we I won’t be requesting how to stand up during this interview? We all done seated. So how? If you don’t know how already is a nationally known expert on sales customer service negotiating, he was number one sales person at the age of 22 in a sales force of 11,000 at Xerox Corporation, which wasn’t an easy thing to achieve, which for sure – and he has Mentored and trained a lot of people over the years and he’s written a number of books.

Can I have five minutes of your time. Lip service get what you want, but his latest book is the ultimate sales book so Hal. I wanted to understand so you written all these other books. You know you’ve worked with a lot of people. What was the genesis of the ultimate sales book? Well, let me just preface it whatever sales book you read, there’s nothing new. So it’s just repackaging information. In fact, I tell people if you’re in a book store, you see any my books, don’t buy them by Dale Carnegie how to win friends, influence people written in 1936.

So before I even get to the ultimate sales book, because I laugh because it’s doing supposedly I’ve told my publisher – it’s doing very well in Korea, South Korea, Poland and Japan, but the u.S. Is not doing that. Well, the next book I’m very excited about because it’s not published yet, but that was the best title. I’ve ever come up with ever it’s called elevators features a cramp take the escalator that is even when that book comes out.

There’s nothing new. It’s just repackaging of information, so whatever I give you or my opinions or bit-bit fact, based on all the other books written in the last 70 or 80 years. So this the ultimate sales book West, was an experiment. I thought: okay, I’m an idiot. Most salespeople are idiots felt like myself and we have a TD. We don’t like. We can’t afford an expense report, a little read a book.

I already put this three-page chapters and they have a very humorous quiz right afterwards. You know four four sentences. You know for questions but humorous to see if you retain any of the information, so the a the the goal was to put like a book in a workbook together in a very short two-hour read, and it covers everything in sales. Again, nothing is new, so it comes anything from hot to cold call how to use the phone and how to you know, handle objections.

I think once a closing the customer test so weak ask a good question zone and everything else in between. So what do you when you say: okay, so Dale Carnegie, you know way back when in the thirties – and you say you know nothing has – has really changed but have what are what are some of the things that you see or challenges? That may be a little bit different today than when, when you when, when you started selling well, I’m still selling, because I’m the weekends buddy.

Once I have a neat piece, Motown band and I’m paid, we booked a year advance and I’m a 62 to $ 100. An evening, but I’m the one who’s the sales, not getting all the business and I’m trying to kill myself to make nine dollars an hour, so sales, the sales, the sales, the sales. What what has changed is this technology, so my opinion and when I say a penny, that’s all it is because people can differ.

You know disagree with me everything’s relationships and from the 1910s to the 1990s there were two ways to get an appointment. When was this, when was this, then things changed with the event: the invention of the internet and email, then, when 2007, when the iPhone came out and everything along that social media, just what we’re doing here, everything changed the landscape change, because now we have phone knocking On doors, email, voicemail text, so with changes transactions and how to get the appointment, so you have to be well-versed in typing, you got ta belt, be well-versed in texting, using the phone knocking on doors and what I’m fighting.

So to answer your question specifically now, in my opinion: what’s changed, is we have much shorter attention spans? So less is more. You got to get to the point. You’ve got 7 8, 9 10 seconds and you’ve got to be well-versed in all areas. So many other twenties grew up on technology, so in my age in the 60s grew up through technology, so it’s a whole different, ballgame mom and, along with that, business has become transactional like I’ve never seen before before it was relationships and and who knows where it’s Going to go we’re in the middle of a hurricane, nothing mentioned that the hurricane is sitting right now, but but with Google and Amazon we don’t know.

I totally agree with you and actually, if you can, if you can learn how to knock on a door with your phone while you’re texting on this, but I agree with you, I mean I think we don’t know where we’re going. But the part you mentioned in my relationship, I think and and I’d love to get your opinion on this. I think the idea of relationship was maybe played down a little over the last number of years, because people was always all technology and everything and yeah they were sort of saying.

Oh, you build digital relationships, but I think the relationship aspect is definitely coming back to the fore and people are realizing that that, at the end, the end of the day is still the critical piece 26 year old kid again. As a kid to me, he said well, this is his line. Emails for information, not communication. I’ll, give you the perfect example I’m going to give a plug to this company if you’re a musician or whether you buy a microphone if you’re a speaker whatever it is.

There’s, Sam Ash, you know the stores there’s Chris Tyra center. They have their online presence as well and then there’s a company that most physicians own called Sweetwater. I have no idea what a sweet wire is, but I want to try them once to order something online. They are so good that they call you three or four times a year, just leaving a voicemail, no upselling, hey hi. This is Casey from Sweetwater.

Just wan na stay in touch say hi. I needed to place an order this week for hunting down the right. I’m a nothing thing: the only people I could think of was placing it through them and instead of just going online, I called them mm-hmm because it was just a spam, so wonderful like so I could use technology or use the person and when companies marry the Two now we’re in the perfect world, and I don’t think companies have figured that out yet yeah.

I I think, you’re a hundred percent right because I think we’ve all had the same experiences, but sometimes it feels like companies leverage technology to keep us from ever talking to someone right, yeah I’ll, give you a great example how there was a while back where I Had to update a subscription on the site and the site was going through some changes and to do the they gave you a phone number. When you call the phone number went through the phone tree, I told you to go to the website.

When you went to the website and put in your details, I told you to call the number and you were in just in this insane loop yeah. The first thing I look for is a contact number if they just have the contact form by I move on. I want to have a relationship if I need it down the road and it’s just just no companies couldn’t we could talk about service all day. Long. Do you provide or not you’re you and I we’ve never met until now, you’re.

First of all, you texted me earlier just ping me early. We started this call early you and I for the instant relationship within four seconds and or you would need not form a relationship. That’s life yeah it wheat, but most people don’t even take the chance to do that anymore. I’d have to ask you, I mean because interesting that you know you when you were at Xerox, arrived because Xerox was one of the you know leading companies when it came to sales – and I don’t know if you know I I I run a company called hath.

Wait for a while, which was spin selling, which was near Rackham, who actually did a lot of work with Xerox back in the day right? What are there? Are there some things that you learn too zero? I told those years ago that you have kind of carried through your whole career as real core skills. What’s funny about the way that was with who’s running a company now out of London, is it Tony Hughes? Yes, I bet we would seminar together in Athens, Greece, maybe a year ago or so, and my opinion again is what I when I went to I’m a screw-up.

You know I had a 1:7 acumen high school, I mean that’s a d-plus average, the guy across the hall me. I couldn’t get a job so much comfier to Xerox yeah. How do I sell copiers? I mean what’s the lower on the food chain and I never go into our training. I went whoa and then we went to our training center, which is three weeks 21 days, and then I was so immersed in Venice that I decided to do something.

I’ve never done in my life. I read a book on sales and I got hooked and from that moment on, in these words, I try to eat, tell sales people because the only profession I’ve ever seen it’s made up of amateurs. If you want to be treated like a pro, do something athletes will do anything they cannot to sit on. The bench salespeople are comfortable on the bench, so whether it’s reading a book, whether it’s whatever so to answer your question so from Xerox, we went through.

What’s called PS s1, which is for professional selling skills one because that’s one became PSS, two became PSS. Three became need. Satisfaction, selling became spin selling, it’s all the same, which is question based selling find out about the customer. However, you want to do it to have a conversation and when you leave, do you know more about them or they know more about you. I just gave you eight hours in a sales course.

That’ll close, don’t get fancy just stop talking about yourself. I tell people it’s a date time date. If you don’t want to date, talk about you, the other person’s, going to sit there and go what a loser just walk out finding out about the other person. So do you, and that is something I did a couple of things I just want to dissect from what you said number one there’s the point about what you were saying is that a lot of people come into sales and never have any training right.

It’s one of the fun it’s one of the few jobs you can get where you’re not and yet there’s yet the ones who stand out are the ones who they don’t even wait around for as Eric’s to train them. They they invest in themselves right, but a lot of people don’t so, is that one thing that you would really encourage people to do if they’re, if they haven’t done it already, it’s invest in your own in your own training.

Absolutely and there’s a Jim Collins where the book would be great to every seller, but there’s one line in them that made all the sense get the right. People on the bus and my opinion, the two most important qualities for a salesperson and you can’t train either. Um and there’s no specific order to a number one is a desire. If you don’t have desire you’re not going to be great because it’s a skills, you have to hustle whether its existing customers, whether it’s inside sales, outside sales, new business and number two – and this is the big one.

You can have high empathy where you’re truly putting a customer first and not the sale, can’t train either of those and so most salespeople when they start to study and learn the science of, because I don’t know about you, I am NOT going to a self-taught doctor. I don’t wan na self-taught salesperson, so when I’m around a real pro that truly puts the customer first and they read them, do that Tommy the field or buying something? That’s it they’re going.

This person gets it and I’ve always liked women salespeople over men. I think they’re more empathetic, I think the more genuine, the more she’s here. They know how to multitask better right that people disagree with you, but I ya know, and I think that the the empathy wants it in is an interesting one, because I think a lot of people don’t understand what them. But empathy really means right and some people think it’s because I had this conversation one time with some other people and their argument.

Saying: oh, you know. If you get too empathetic you know, then you might even talk yourself out of a sale or whatever, and I say I said but empathy, it’s not always. Empathy isn’t agreeing with somebody. Empathy is understanding and trying to put yourself in their shoes, and sometimes you may have to deliver hard truths to somebody. You know and that’s what real empathy is right. Why say? Yes, this isn’t right, for you, empathy is, you say, talk yourself out of a sale, great sales people never listen themselves out of a sale.

It should be the opposite: 90 minimum 70 % of the time he shouldn’t be talking since these world even from a long time ago. Think the more they talk, the more endearing they are, the more the customer likes. It is the opposites, the less you talk, the more the customer talked to the more event they like you and you’re. Not there be light if you’re there to do your, I don’t care. If I like my doctor when I go winter, my doctor’s job is just to make me well and if I am well, I got my annual physical and I’m eating 80 Twinkie today, you say: keep eating Twinkies, so I want to be a doctor of blank in Sales, it’s interesting, you say about the listening, because that is the part that I think again it’s a thing that I don’t think a lot of people understand they they’ll understand all day.

You can say you need to ask a good question say: yes, obviously, and then you need to listen to the answers. Yes, obviously, I need to listen to the answers, but there’s listening in this listening right, there’s listening and really you know understanding what they’re saying and processing it and maybe asking clarifying questions and validating what you’re hearing as opposed to listening or scribbling down something, and then Thinking yeah, I got it.

I need to see they’re trained for the whole warehouse, so this is how simple decision I can’t believe, my friends, I can’t I can’t I can’t take money to teach this stuff. Here’s how simple this is and you’re going to laugh at this job. Take a reporter notes in front of them. Take any talks on hopes from Jimmy family Johnny Carson. Their questions are in a cube, truck an index card, a pilot’s as a pre-flight.

A teacher has a lesson: plan attorney, sent notes or briefs. Quarterbacks have their plays on their sleeve. I’m going on this list to all professionals. She has people walking with a blank legal pad or a brochure. So I have to fight what I need to fight. I mean fight to convince them. You have to go on a call with your questions, written out and pull them out in front of you. You look you’re looking down a few times.

What you’re supposed to do at the question you’re going to be asking me if you didn’t come in prepared with questions? What kind of reporter would you be in here, but you’re supposed to be doing and that’s what they’re supposed to be doing and it does the most important things just what you were talking about? First of all, if you don’t ask the questions, you get the answers, but if it’s written down you now truly get to listen to the customer.

Instead of thinking what you’re going to say, next yeah, no and and and we have we have empirical evidence of that, like when I, as I said when I ran house when we did engagements with companies, one of the leading indicators of success were salespeople. Who did proper call planning, says people who wind it like you said, didn’t have as much success and it’s there I mean the evidence. Is there, but yes, how many? If, if you took ten random sales, people off the street – and you said, show me your calendar right, all 10 of them would have customer appointments on them.

Hopefully, prospects customers, how many, how many whoops yeah? How many many of them you reckon, would have 10 or 15 half an hour set aside for planning? Well, because it’s second nature you’re a pro. I would never want a sales call without my questions or even if they’re tattooed to my arm, but I make salespeople when I’m on a sales call. I ask those people to question your own. What’s your goal number two more questions and that’s what he treats just teach the sales managers.

Where are your but you’re not going on a call to your questions written out, I don’t care what bullet points on. I care how you do it. It alleviates you from talking all the time and they still get because again, they’re self taught pick up a book, become a student and learn what and every book says the exact says. Don’t prepare don’t be too genuine. Don’t be honest? Don’t be sincere, it’s just a little more car might have questions and just listen.

There you go, and I think and I think how as we come towards the end, I think the other thing that we’re fighting against now is. Unfortunately, we’ve started to become this very casual shortcut culture and I think sometimes these age-old lessons they just when when people hear them they’re just like yeah and but the reality is, if you want to be successful, put in the work prepare. Well, you probably like myself when you fly quite a bit.

The pilot, probably on that same plane, is doing six to eight takeoff and landing today on the exact same plane and every time they do that they do a physical inspection of the same plane, plot their information and do a pre-flight, because they’re prepared that doctors back. That list of questions on the fiscal they do two three four a day. I don’t see a doctor walking out going forgot the hard thing I still have in my hand the shortcuts take take them on the paperwork.

Don’t do expense report, fine, you won’t get paid, but don’t make a shortcut on sales call. You’ve got an average of an hour and 20 minutes a day. That’s it for an average outside salesperson to be in front of customers and you’re going to take a shortcut. Mm-Hmm, I don’t know you, we all love money, that’s why you’re in sales most of it exactly listen, how this has been great. Listen when does you’re a new book come out.

Oh well, I’m hoping this one takes off in North Korea as well, Korea. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. This come out because you know if the publisher does a great job. Well, it should sell here because of the ATD yeah. No, I think, that’s great but like I said I hope it penetrates North Korea this time and listen before we go. How? How can people find out more about you back crack’s BAC, k, tra XX band and where do you play just around the Cleveland, but you know we’re booked every weekend pretty much excellent yeah.

I got ta check out sometime, listen how this has been great. Thank you very much. My name is John golden says. Pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM see all again soon ash. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved. In the conversation. Love to hear what you have to say:


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Organizational Design with Amy Kates | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden, says hop online says magazine pipeliner CRM and today I’m joined by Amy Cates. How do you do Namie, I’m just fine. Thank you. John and Amy is part of Managing Partner of the Cates Kessler organization, which consults in a number of areas, but particularly in organizational options and implications, and how to make sound decisions around how to structure your your organization’s.

You also teach at Cornell, there’s a correct and and obviously is also an author of numerous books and speaks and writes on a regular basis, a pretty busy so for somebody listening Amy. Her name is in by the way in New York today and I’m in San Diego Amy, for somebody listening when you talk about designing, you know organizational design or organization design. What do you mean by that to some people that might sound? Well, that sounds very because in the past organizations were fairly simple, but the world has gotten much more complex in the last four twenty years and we have to think about not just strategy and people.

But how do we really build an architecture of an organization so that people can come to work and do their best and understand? Who do I talk to how do decisions get made? How does workflow so when we talk about organization design its? It’s really the set of decisions you make after strategy to say? How do I want to configure my organization so that people can connect the right way horizontally vertically to get work done, and typically we work with companies that are global, that multiple product lines that are developing new strategies that are moving from? You know business business, to business, to consumer, introducing digital capabilities, and this complexity really requires than an organization that can can match the what to do that strategy.

Yeah, because it’s interesting what you say there, because you know what a lot of companies, obviously they they do. Their strategy, and then they move straight to execution right and don’t do that kind of structural piece and also a lot of organizations. You know traditionally kind of grow organically right I mean they structures come about organically. So what happens when you get that we’re we’re a company moves from strategy to execution without the design part yeah.

So typically, is its strategy really not even to execution? It’s the org chart? Okay. So let’s change the org chart change the direct report structure. Let’s consolidate some pieces, let’s make some new roles to get things done and we we design around people and the people that we have as opposed to thinking about an organizational model that can last so what happens when we don’t really do design work to think about How structure management process reward mechanisms and people processes work together in a system? What you do is you might solve a short-term problem by let’s say we take out some management layers, so we can press the organization and say that’ll speed decision-making.

We’ve changed the org chart, but we haven’t changed the work and so soon what we have is. The organization starts to organically grow again to fill in those missing pieces. So when we do our work with clients, we start with strategy. We look at capabilities and we say: what’s the organization model we want to organize toward and then let’s make smart decisions to build, really a roadmap to get there yeah and – and you raise an interesting point there, because that is the big trap that our companies fall Into is fitting.

People is starting with the people rather than with the the process or the organization of the structure, and then you kind of go. Oh well. You know this person they’ve been around a long time, so we’ll shoehorn them into this. Even though they’re the work, even though they’re completely not the right fit for it right, but it’s a real it’s real temptation to do that. Isn’t it absolutely and because that’s tangible, I can see that I can make a change.

You know we often joke that organizations are really. You know, three-dimensional invisible, abstract concepts, you you know, you feel the organization impact see, but you can’t see it, and so when leaders or even HR professionals, don’t feel confident in the set of tools they have. Then it’s easy to go to the things that we can change, that are tangible. Let’s change the org chart roles, jobs, people in those roles.

So that’s why we’re so passionate in our firm about not just doing the work and consulting but writing and teaching and making articles and doing workshops to really build the skills out there and demystify this and the other trap that people fall into a lot is. Is this idea of you can only scale by people right? You can only add more and more more people without taking a step back and looking at the efficiency part.

Looking at the structural part when you, when you work with organizations, is that something you come across a lot where they’re just throwing people at problems rather than analyzing the issues. Just don’t have enough to do we’re not busy here right, so everybody’s busy and yet feels and feels overwhelmed with communication and priorities, and yet we have inefficiency in the work and high costs so and the usual answer is you’re.

Absolutely right. Let’s put more throw more people at the problem, but more people actually generate work as much as they do work. They create surface area, they ask for meetings, they ask for data, they ask for reports. So one of the things that we go in and look at is is: it is really to start with the work. Let’s, let’s redesign the work and the workflows in the context of the strategy capabilities we want to get done and then look at people what you know what’s going on right now with machine learning, artificial intelligence, automation which is you know, it’s been building its in there, A little bit, but it’s going to come fast and big, is fundamentally going to change the nature of work, not just what we’ve seen in manufacturing or service work or call center kinds of things, but really in marketing in R & D and where we thought you Know this is where people’s jobs is are really about decision making, it is artificial intelligence is going to change it so or design becomes even more important, because we have to think about what’s the unique contribution that we need people to make and be sure that we Have the right skills in the right place and that again we we organize, so we can do unique things together, yeah and that’s an interesting you to bring that up about AI in machine learning in there and and baths and all of that kind of stuff.

Because I do I mean obviously, we are seeing that rapidly coming into into into many organizations. But we still don’t have a great grip on how, as you say, how to combine it with the people and at the end of the day. And we always had this thing about pendulums. Don’t we like pendulum goes: it’s like: let’s replace everything with AI and machine learning and then so, when you’re talking with organizations, how are you helping them through this transition because I can see this is on the horizon? For a lot of people, yeah yeah, so first, what’s interesting, you know 15 years goes all that outsourcing and we see a lot of companies bringing back some of that because they they push too much out the door, and that was core to their capabilities.

But with organizations you know what’s changed I think is strategy is still important, but it’s less about hey. We have a three-pronged strategy: that’s good for five to seven years, we’re going to organize toward that and get into some steady-state we’re working with a lot of organizations in industries in which we don’t know. What’s going to be a winning strategy. So when you think about media about cable, television and entertainment contents related, how do are we going to get people to pay for what you do? You know, for example, and all of the old business models are really being challenged.

So, in a lot of ways, the work is not to designer organization to a fixed strategy, but it’s to create organizations that can sense the environment that can make decisions quickly, that can experiment and rapidly prototype and try out different ways to see. What’s going to work and make good decisions around a portfolio of opportunities? Um because we don’t know you know which is going to be that winner, and so that’s that’s new and unsettling for a lot of fun, Peters, yeah, cuz.

What you’ve described there is obviously anathema to the way organizations were in years gone by. I mean this idea of you know, being extremely flexible and fluid and able to react, and you know prototype and and experiment. A lot of people were not set up. Organizations are not set up that way right, so this is obviously the big challenge ahead for people like you, when you work with organizations is how do you take and that a new problem – and I’m sure you’ve done this, obviously with some organization.

But how do you take a very maybe traditional organization and help them on that journey to being a little more flexible and fluid yeah yeah, and you know what’s interesting – is that flexibility and fluidity is not um. Just chaos right. You actually need more leadership. You need more discipline, you need more process in order to be fast and adaptable, especially when you’re, when you’re looking at organization, that’s in multiple regions – and I get has multiple product lines trying to come together for common customers and then make this change so um.

The way to do it is, is it has to start from the top as well as from the bottom, so it’s about leadership really being clear about where they want to go and what those new behaviors are. What success looks like again, we might not know the strategy, we might not know what even products we have, but we know how it will feel for our customers and how we need to work together. Then it’s about unleashing some of those experiments down close to the customer right, it’s not about just having something up at corporate that says up.

This is innovation here it is it’s really helping the people who see and touch the customer des, try new ways and create networks to really see what works and and invest in those. So it’s a lot of almost an internal venture kind of mindset that you have to build, and that has to happen over time. It’s it’s not just hiring a person. So again, this idea of capabilities that you know we make the distinction, say: competency lives in a person, but a capability, an organizational capability, something we do together and so focusing on that on.

How do we need to work together in new ways to get different decisions? New outcomes is really the old design work yeah. So it’s not a question of just hiring it. You know chief chaos officer or whoever something you like that, but I love that thought of what you’re saying about the fact is the flexibility and fluidity. It does not equal chaos because it can’t, because, obviously, chaos is the opposite: everything kind of grinds to a halt to glorious halls eventually.

So the other thing that kind of really in true intrigues me about this is you. You went back to leadership right, as you said leadership at the beginning. So that’s that’s. A big challenge now is for leaders to transition to being different types of leaders and in the past maybe the command and control is it doesn’t work so much anymore and it’s more the it’s more having this structural vision and then getting the right people to implement It absolutely but make no mistake, it is not.

It is not abdication of your vision, you know again walking into so many companies doing org assessments. What I hear over and over the number one issue that I hear across companies, we have too many priorities. Our leaders are not making choices, they’re, not setting direction or helping us make trade-offs. Where do I spend my time? Where are we making investments, and so the work of leadership today is to make some of those big bets again and and then nurture the small portfolio of small opportunities and and know when to stop a project know when to double down project, to move resources and That takes a lot of courage that takes a lot of collaboration that takes a high-performing leadership team to make trade-offs against all of these different options.

Low ego and then it takes managers, corporate coaches to help people really work in the teams across these boundaries. To get new work done so so the change that we see is absolutely you’re right. It’s not commanding controls, not figure out and tell me what to do. It’s giving me the framework so that I can come to work and spend my energy in the right. The right way – and I’m glad you mentioned that idea of choice because it’s a bit of a soapbox of mine.

This idea is like human beings as human beings. We hate making choices, everything we like, but we really hate it because when you choose one thing you by definition of default, unchoose other things and we prefer to hedge our bets all the time, and I do think we were in a in a world you’re right Now you’re we’re in a world where you have you have to make choice and you have to make bets and if you make a wrong choice, you’ve got to get out of it quickly, right, yeah, yes, so speed! You know if, if I was to say, what’s the biggest difference that see in the last, you know 20 years of doing this kind of work.

It’s not. The world wasn’t complex before global, but the speed of of expectation has changed. So what technology has done? Is it it has been a cycle times of product development, of of customer expectation of R & D, and yet we need to. We need to connect the best middle of managers in our global organizations, and you know, I often say, as human beings we haven’t really evolved in the last 20 years.

We don’t process information any faster. We still like to build relationships and get things done through trust, and so this pressure to be faster to make good fast decisions is really what drives a lot of organizational change. How do we reconfigure to get the right connections to make better faster decisions, because at the end of the day, that’s what wins, yeah and that raba see requires a good level of being able to process engineer very fast right? Yes, yes, yes, so it’s really management processes, business processes, workflows, decision processes, governance forms friendly, it’s all the stuff that leaders and managers hate to do it’s not a fun thing that you know we sign up to do to say: I’m going to be ahead of a Function and ahead of a business unit this, but this is the work I mean, I think that’s it.

That’s a that’s a great point also to touch upon there yeah. It’s not it’s not probably the most exciting of work for people, but as you, as you have laid out quite clearly here that if you don’t get your processes right, all the different processes right you’re not going to be able to move with speed and you’re. Not going to be able to you know, have success and and and you’re not going to be able to change direction.

If you need to fast either exactly exactly again that idea of discipline rigor, you know how we run teams. How do we meet how we make decisions, how we manage work and handoffs but across boundaries? All of that helps us actually to move faster, but it means John putting the time into design those being thoughtful and then also keeping them healthy because they don’t last as we choose direction, we need to change all of those pathways and mechanisms and and what I Urge leaders to do is to explain that to employees so that it’s not we’ve made a norm change this time.

We got it right, it should last because it won’t and then they won’t, it reduces trust and credibility. Rather, to say, we have an organizational vision just like we have a strategic vision, we’ll be organizing toward that and here’s what you can expect as we move forward together, stay with your way to managing change yeah, and I think that’s a that’s a fantastic point too. To end on here is that idea of getting people comfortable with the fact that what you’re designing is the best thing you can design for today, hopefully for tomorrow, but maybe the day after that we might have to change again I mean you look at, as you Said the speed of disruption I mean you mentioned the broadcast and TV industry, I mean who they wouldn’t have thought a few years ago that they get so blindsided by streaming and now they their struggle for business models.

They can so I mean IIIi. Think that’s a great thing to to end on that idea of the fact. Is you you we’re not we’re not building to steady States right we’re building the best for now? Yes, so it’s a growing field. There’s lots of resources out there. You know we’ve been making articles and articles books and really trying to help people understand their tools or frameworks. There’s methods to think about this and have the conversation together and just make make smarter decisions about your organization yeah, so Amy before we go.

If you just like to tell everybody a little bit more about yourself, your organization, how they can learn more about you and what you do sure I’m Amy Cates my partner is quick Kesler. We have a wonderful team of just about a dozen people that work with us and all we do is help. Leaders and leadership teams make smart decisions about their organization, but we also teach our design, as you mentioned, through Cornell public programs, in-house programs.

We have the latent learning series online, as well as YouTube blog of articles and our website case. Counselor comm has lots of articles and blogs on the topic if people are interested so we’re always eager to share and to teach and always have someone contact me with a question: great, listen, Amy. This has been fantastic and I encourage people to check out more about this, because I’m I’m a firm believer that it’s it’s! How you organize yourself! That’s how you’re going to win in the future, because you’re going to have to be moving in so many different directions and being able to be very, very flexible in that so again, my name is John golden says.

Pop online says magazine: pipeliner CRM, Amy Cates been a pleasure and look forward to see you all again soon. Thank you.


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Master of Negotiations with Herb Cohen | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM and today I’m delighted to be joined by herb Cohen, who is in Brooklyn Heights in New York. Hey turn herb you’re, just fine and herb has for more than three decades or maybe even more he’s been a practicing negotiator intimately immersed in in some of the world’s leading, like headline dramas from hostage hostile takeovers, hostile hostage negotiations, your clients have been executives, entrepreneurs, sports Theater, the glut corporations, government agencies and you’ve written a number of books on the subject of negotiation, so so herb, I, you are a definitive resource on negotiations and I’m sure you’ve forgotten more about negotiations than most people will ever know in their lifetime.

Right. Yes, although so what are some of the when people come to negotiate in the first place, I don’t think negotiations are something that comes naturally to most people. I mean a lot of us think, maybe that we’re good negotiators, but we don’t really know what we’re doing. What are some of the mistakes that people make when they approach negotiations in the first place? Well, initially, they believe that it is something that’s very narrow, they see it, they use the metaphor of the pie and they think well, here’s a pie with 12 slices, and if I get six, they get six I’m going to try to get eight and hold them Off so they see it as a competitive game and that’s really not what it is.

Actually, you know, if you take the pie metaphor I may like the crust, then you may like the apple and he’s like inside, and so you can generally work things out or both sides gain in both sides benefit yeah. So so I mean I could just saying they’re so but – and I think that’s true and I think that’s unfortunately true business and life – that people tend to look at things as finite as opposed to you know, there’s enough there for everyone, but also tell me people Do people generally very few people love the negotiations? Phase right negotiating is something that’s learned.

I didn’t start out as a negotiator, you learn it it’s a skill that you will acquire and the way you acquire it is by practicing it probably. The first things that people should remember is that virtually everything is negotiable. Thing is the product of a negotiation. That’s how it came about a price thing about like Tiffany’s, would you say gee it’s going to go stated Tiffany’s? Oh my god. You know it’s like untouchable.

It’s holy ground. Yet how did they establish the price that judging $ 8,000 for the ring – and these salespeople said hey, let’s make it seven we’ll sell more rings. The accounting financial people said no make it nine profit and they worked it out and ultimately, they came up with 8000, which prices 7990 sounds better. Yeah point is: if something came about as a result of negotiation. Of course it’s negotiable and if you start to think virtually everything came about as a result of the negotiation, the only thing that didn’t are religious and ethical moral principles right other than that everything’s negotiable.

Like I wrote a book, you could negotiate anything which has been translated into 36 languages, yeah and I’ll, be the world’s world’s biggest selling book on negotiating them selling selling is a negotiation anytime. You were attempting to influence someone’s behavior you’re negotiating we negotiate. Is we negotiate with banks? We negotiate what our boss, we negotiate with subordinates mm-hmm. Why is this series of negotiations and if you learn how to play this game, you end up being much more satisfied and living an enriched life, so you say in your book: you can negotiate anything there’s three crucial steps to success.

What are those steps? Well, I said: there’s three things: there’s information and the more you get the better off you are. The next is time and the third is power and people always have more power than they think they have. We always underestimate. Ourself, for example, it’s a prisoner in solitary confinement. You know they take away your shoelaces and your belt, so the guys walking around he’s holding up his pants.

You know he’s got those shoes and he craves a cigarette. He goes to the going knocks on the steel door. The guy opens up. What do you want be nice? Why I, like his cigarette BAM, the god slam he comes back, he does it again. The God opens up. I just told you no, he said, look if I don’t get a cigarette from you within the next minute. I tend to bang my head up against that concrete wall till I’m bloody and unconscious and when they revived me I’ll swear that you did it one cigarette.

I won’t bother you now. Can the guy get that cigarette sure get a cup of coffee as well? The point is even in a powerless situation, you’ve got more power than you think, yeah yeah. So that’s great. I’m writing that down. Just in case, I ever find myself and solitary confinement that I know exactly how to get a cigarette going forward. But I like the point, though her because I do think – and this is something I think a lot of salespeople experience like they love the sales process and all of that and they theory, but but as it gets down to the end and it gets into the Negotiation process, as you say, they start to feel like they, like.

The buyer, has all the power and they have no power left right and that’s when they start. You know offering up discounts before anybody even asked for them. So how do you? How do you help people in that situation? Take a step back and say no, no, this is you know, there’s there’s power on both sides of the table. Well. Well, first of all, let me just digress for a moment say: selling is really today a honorable skilled, profession, yeah, because you’re in selling other than other jobs in corporations where I was in selling one you get ownership for the results.

You did it. Okay number two! You get instant feedback right and in other jobs and corporations staff jobs. How do you know you’re doing well of my performance appraisal in six months and the boss calls you and tells you, and he says things, do you like remember five months ago, you thought you doing well. Well, you were, and the third thing is one ownership results, feedback and an opportunity to take risk, and so, if you’re in sales, you really can be very independent.

I was in corporations and selling positions and I could arrive late. I would pop my 10 year old car and the CEOs place because they didn’t want to walk, and I got away with all that stuff. Why? Because I was like yeah selling is fantastic and selling involves negotiation other than that you in order to take you work for Apple, and you have 8,000 new new, ipods, ipads, 8,000 new ones, and it’s the new number 16 model.

Yeah and you’ve got 30,000 people at wonnum you’re, not selling you’re, taking orders you’re filling out slips selling involves skill. It involves determining what the needs of the customer are and satisfying those needs, and a lot of that is done by your style. How you approach people and the best way to approach a custom if you’re in selling is in a congenial cooperative fashion, with what I call a low-key pose of calculated incompetence so run run that by me again that sentence say you want to approach people in an Amicable fashion, with a Loki Loki pose of calculated and comprises other words, listen to the other side find out what they want.

Ask questions rather than give answers even take notes, because people love when someone’s writing things down will say to me. But if you’re dealing a little moron you’re saying, I should write down what he says more important to write down what a moron first, because you’re the first guy who never wrote down if you’re a real professional salesperson, you’re finding out what your customers needs are and You’re shaping your product, your service, whatever you have to meet those particular needs, he’s satisfied and you’re satisfied.

In fact, you never approach people in the condescending way. The opposite is true: negotiation selling, dumb is bed and smart inarticulate is better than articulate. You want to train yourself to say I don’t know I don’t understand. Could ya? Could you help me I’m kind of new at this and let the other side help you let the other side, your customer virtually meant to you. Through this deal, you will become a much more successful person now, in fact, I have what I call the magic words of selling.

These are three-letter words. First word is spell hu H and that’s pronounced. Deca word is WH 80 WH a note T on and it knows wha. It really helps me see. One of my strategies, the negotiation and selling, is to make the other side feel superior to me right if any cases get the work very hard, but nevertheless the pays off, and so your style, your manner, your demeanor is more important than the content.

The price of this transaction and many salespeople think well, I didn’t get it because right, the price. Do I if we cut the price, but in reality you know, there’s an old saying when people are get annoyed, they say: well, it’s not what they said. It’s the way they said mhm, and so, if you look at your most successful salespeople, most successful negotiators, they have a style, a manner that other people relate to.

They feel nothing yeah and it’s true. I mean they always say that people remember how you made them feel not really what you said. It’s the same, if you can give an hour-long speech and people may not remember practically anything, you said, but they go wow. That was good. I really liked you know. I really felt that was engaging, and so I I take what you’re saying about sales number one. I think it’s a it’s a very good point.

It’s a fantastic profession, it’s unfortunately, it gets a bad rap, because popular culture loves to present it in a particular way. But this idea of a win-win, because sometimes people mistakenly think that if you don’t come away with more than the other person in a negotiation that you somehow lost, no, it’s not true. First of all, the last thing you negotiate is the quantifiable item. You save that to the end and you get people to invest in a relationship, see if I start out collaborative or cooperative.

Even if the other side thinks see this guy’s week, I’m going to conquer and destroy him, I’m going to get more pieces in fine cuz. He sounds funny, you know and look at me. He looks funny. He don’t look like a great top overpowering executive. No, and so what happens? Is they invest in the relationship and once people invest it’s hard for them to divest? You know. Rats at human beings have this in common, the more energy expended in pursuit of a particular goal, the more desirable that goal becomes, and so once people invest it’s hard for them, and so, if you kind of remember, is you know the emphasis upon your me manner? Your demeanor, it really helps you succeed, yeah and I think that’s and I think that’s true, so I think it’s a Kanaka said because if your salesperson and you negotiate with customer, it’s you know for the cost.

It’s also uncomfortable for many customers, because they, you know sometimes, if they’re not bringing in like procurement or something they’re, not they’re, not buying every day of the week and they’re, not negotiating so they’re, not they’re, not skilled. At that either look people want to establish relationship, in fact, the best people in our society who all of us are exposed to a great negotiators who start out as great negotiator the only people of children.

If you have kids, if you have contact with children, nieces nephews, you know that kids, who are little people in a big person’s world, technically have no authority or power seem to get a lot of what they want. How do they do it number one kids aim high. They end with unrealistic accepted all right, so they affect the thinking of the parent to the trying influence. The second thing the kids do is they believe that no is not really a final answer, but it’s an opening bargaining position.

So you tell a kid know: five minutes, ladies asking you again, it’s never over with this job. The third thing kids do is they form coalition’s? In other words, they say who can influence the decision make up the parents, other decision-makers, grandparents, so they form coalition’s with the GIMP grandparents against the parents. In fact, it’s easy for them to form that coalesced, because they have a common enemy, the parent.

What kids do is they persist? They persevere. I am my wife. We are the parents of three children. First child. We have these standards and rules very little exceptions. Second, kid: we have many more exception. Third, kid: we would tired people staying there 30 day, read: ask your brother and sister yeah used to be around here, and so, if we adopt the model of children just that we’re going to be more successful, I love that this is a great great way to Finish here, so it’s its aim, high form, coalition’s and be persistent, and then obviously it’s a win-win guy, because we mean at the end of the day anyway, because the kids are happy.

Parents are happy, life is good. Grandparents are happy, yes, well, listen herb! This has been fantastic before we go just like if you want to take a moment to tell people a little bit more about how they can contact you and learn. More probably, the best way to contact me is via email, /, h, er, b, Co AG and herb Cohen, four to seven at gmail.Com, great and listen herb. It’s been a fantastic, been a pleasure interviewing you.

I was really looking forward to it. I’m glad we were able to to make this work, and my name is John golden co-op online sales magazine pipeliner CRM SEO for another expert interview really soon. Thank you. Thank you.


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Techniques to be Persuasive in Sales with Lee Warren | Sales Expert Insight

My name is John Gollum from sales pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined by Lee Warren, who is in London, Lee correct. That’s correct, South London, excellent and yeah Lee is a professional speaker and it’s also a first for sales pub because he also was a professional magician for a long time as well. So we’ve we’ve had a number of people on the show from different professions.

We haven’t had a magician before so Lee is written, a number of books had to persuade anyone to do anything and grown-ups, don’t use PowerPoint and what Lee talks a lot about is the art of persuasion, and I know, through all the sales people listening in today. Persuasion is a big thing so again Lee waarom. Welcome, so tell me tell me your philosophy when it comes to persuasion. Well, there’s a very long answer and a very short answer, and the very short answer is that persuasion is a very ethical thing or I think a lot of people think persuade being persuasive quite a Machiavellian.

You know they think it’s about convincing people to do stuff. They wouldn’t do, and but actually persuasion is all about getting emotional engagement with with people. So if, if someone feels like you know what you’re saying they’re more presenting to them or what you’re pitching to them, if they feel like this is interesting to them – or this is far nor this is worth their time or this is going to make them look Good in front of someone else – or this is going to make them money or any sort of positive emotion, then then you’re, a more persuasive person.

That’s the short answer, that’s my fundamental view of persuasion, and so how can people learn to be more persuasive? You know in their part, there are some things that they can do to actually set themselves up to being more persuasive in their engagements with other people. Oh yeah, some fairly simple things straightaway. Actually I mean they aren’t they’re so simple. They almost shouldn’t need saying out loud, but I find with a lot of the work I do need saying so.

The first one is you: you’ve got to listen and understand other people’s worlds. More III would say hand on heart with every client I’ve ever had and myself most of us are very, very good, especially in sales. We’re really good at talking about. What’s interesting to us, we’re often very good at the spiel and you know, but nobody wants to be sold to really people push back against that, so learning how to really listen to people learning how to really understand what people’s real needs are and what’s really on Their mind at the moment you’re coming into contact with them.

Those are two very simple things, but they’re a bit like chest. I think you can. You can learn to do those things in a minute and then it takes a lifetime to to become good at them. I tell you what others fairly simple thing people can do is is really restructure, how they think about language when you, when you meet people who are genuinely really persuasive, very often what you’ll find is they talk in either very visual language, so there are some be Using images so they’ll say things like imagine: if, wouldn’t it be great, if we could don’t often talk very visually and and the other thing is they’re very, very good, and I think they do this very honestly, very ethically, I don’t think they’re being manipulative but they’re Very good at looking at what the future could be like for all of us.

Stick together. They really do want everyone to have a solution or everyone to win from whatever they’re proposing they’re sorta, like the opposite of the you know, the sleazy car salesperson ya know. I love those ideas and let me go just goodbye to listen for a moment. Okay, because I think this is becoming an increasing problem of not just listening but be present right, because we’re we’ve become so accustomed to be distracted and we say, oh you know we’re.

So busy nowadays, when reality is, you know we’re so distracted nowadays and I think it’s coming harder and harder for people to be present when they’re talking to somebody so be present and listen. I think those are challenging things whatwhat. Do you think people can do to actually maybe mitigate from remit again against you know these distractions are not being present. Well, III. Think there’s a couple of things.

So one is, it is a mindset shift and I think you I said that carefully, yep as a restless speaker, I’m always terrified of getting things wrong on stage you know, but I think there is. There is a shift in our mindset, which is you have to genuinely believe that what other people have got to say and what’s in other people’s minds is, is as valuable as what’s in your own mind, and I think, if we’re honest with ourselves a lot of Us that we’re not really listening to people we’re just waiting for our turn to speak, so I think that you’ve got to genuinely view other other people’s worlds as being as interesting as your own.

But then, in practical terms, I think some of it’s a little bit about practice. Actually, and I mean, as you were, asking the question I was thinking of my own experience as a magician and a lot of people think magic is all about. You know the quickness of the hands, but actually that’s the easy bit of being a magician you just you just learn that and the hard stuff is really being present and understanding what’s happening, so I’m doing a magic trick.

I’ve got to practice what’s going on in my hands enough that I can forget about that eventually, because my awareness has to be all other canapes going to come and interrupt. What I’m doing is somebody trying to see behind me is somebody about to make a funny joke. That’s going to ruin my carefully repaired spirit. Yeah. I’ve got to be really aware of all those things, but I wouldn’t be able to be if I hadn’t practice the technical stuff.

So I think certainly a lot of people in sales should do a lot more roleplay. I think they should do a lot more getting their pitch down so that all of that stuff, which becomes some good, not subconscious, unconsciously works out. So they don’t really need to think about that they can actually have more attention free for what’s going on around them. Does that answer your question yeah? No, it does absolutely and I think, there’s and I think you’re a hundred percent correct.

That says people need to do more role-playing and more practice. I think if a lot of us are honest, we probably practice our hobbies more than we practice the thing that puts bread on the table right yeah and I also think does here’s an interesting exercise that I think some people should do, and it might be really Surprising is, you know, maybe do what your sales manager or somebody, but what somebody else is actually have a conversation, but instead of answering the other person immediately, you have to we repeat back what they said and showed that you understand it’s understood exactly what they said And you might be surprised how many people fail fail that exercise.

I I think that’s that’s a brilliant exercise. Actually, it reminds me, though there was a very famous acting tutor called Sanford, Meisner and, and he had exactly an acting exercise like that, which was where in pairs you’d, say the same phrase to each other about sort of 50 times. And you end up in this weird mental space, where you really do start listening to everything, except the words being used.

So now you see everything about someone’s body language and I think that’s great. I think the other thing about the other big benefit of role playing now. This is something it took me a little while to learn, because I quite often get clients to do this is that when you’re doing the role play? Actually, it’s not the person playing the role of the sales person who benefits alone. It’s the person pretending to be the buyer or the client, because they suddenly see their own behavior and they sit.

They hear a salesperson pitching to them and they think. Oh, my god, that’s you know, that’s ridiculous. Why would I ever do that, so they learn something even if they’re, not so active in the role play yeah. I agree with that because I think often for some reason we forget that we’re consumers and customers ourselves like when we’re in selling situations and then we suddenly start behaving differently or expecting the other person to behave differently than we would in that situation.

So let’s talk a little bit about language, because I like that idea what you said about people using a visual language, a different language. I don’t think we pay enough attention to what we say and how we say it yeah I couldn’t agree more and – and I think there’s a cop – I mean there’s a couple of caveats to that or a couple of pitfalls, which is, I think, sometimes some people Get too obsessed with their language and they sort of gone we’re training courses and they leap sounding like robots for a week, and you know that never works of quirky stuff well, so, in terms of language in terms of being authentic and having a really sort bulletproof Way of doing it, I I think one really great thing is to be obsessed with value and to really focus on the the value that your product or service brings, rather than the thing itself, and a lot of us get to get too wrapped up in all The processes and systems, and and so on – and I mean a sales conversation really and a persuasive sales conversation – is about an exchange of value.

You know I’ve got some value to give. You you’ve got some value to give me. How can we, as adults, exchange that and one one technique? I use a lot and it’s a great thing is to fill in the second half of a sentence, which is something like at the heart of. What I do is a simple idea, or at the heart of our service is a simple idea. Don’t know doc and what I get you to do is. Is it gets you to really focus really precisely on the value that you bring and that I think organically and naturally gets you to use a better kind of language or more, a language that matters more to cry onsen to the people we’re selling to and a Really fun example: I love to use when I was a full-time magician wedding couples would always say to me what kind of tricks you’re going to do at our wedding and if we think about that really in a sales context, there that’s a process, question they’re, not Really asking that question because they wouldn’t understand the answer.

No they’re really asking you know: can we trust you with the most important day of our lives? That’s really what they’re saying so I could say. Well, I do card tricks and coin tricks and mind-reading tricks, but but that doesn’t do anything about trust and value, or I could say instead well at the heart of my magic is a simple idea and I’ll make your wedding much better than your sister’s was that’s A bit tongue-in-cheek, I’ve never said that to a wedding couple, but but you get the idea, it’s fun, but there’s real value in and buyers.

You know wedding couples would respond to that straight away. They’d laugh and they’d get the joke, but they’d also see the value who doesn’t all the best wedding. They, you know anybody’s ever had yeah no exactly, and I think I think you touched on a great point there and does it there’s a there’s, a person, Lisa Magnuson who does presentations, training and – and she has a dis, great idea, and I think it’s perfect – that A lot of people start off for a presentation or a pitch, and they start to talk about the steps right.

How, instead of she says like if you’re going on a vacation to Hawaii? What are you thinking about? You’re thinking about lying on the beach in Hawaii you’re, not thinking about well, I got ta get the uber to the stage. Now you have to go through those steps, but you got to start with the and just like you said there with I’m going to make this the best wedding, whatever that’s what they want to hear.

You know they don’t want to hear immediately the steps you’re going to use to get there right. Oh, I couldn’t agree more and that actually speaks to what we talked about at the beginning of this. This chat, which is about getting the emotional engagement first you’re, not going to get emotional engagement with people or it’s really hard to. If you start talking about processes and steps and you I hav IE, and that just stands for hearts and minds.

So that’s the order in which you put your information. Can I get an emotional engagement first, followed by the mind stuff, the content and data and then pipe ie just stands for pictures you use loads of pictures. Loads of visual language is the interest you know. What’s the most interesting thing to the people you’re communicating with rather than to you and then e is enthusiasm. You know you’ve got to believe your own stuff and you’ve got do you’re.

The first person you’ve got to persuade it’s going to be a great yeah. I agree with you totally because I thought I don’t think number one I mean you can’t be authentic if you really don’t believe in what you’re selling and I think that comes across and I like the idea of what you said about the win-win. You know the future state is a win-win situation like and I think that’s become increasingly more important because you have savvy buyers and and as you say, you know, people don’t want the they don’t want to feel like they’re being sold to, but they want they want To feel like you’re invested in their success right and that’s the thing that you’ve got to get across.

Oh I I couldn’t agree more 100 % and I think certainly I mean the digital revolution. I mean it’s its revelry for the first time ever, there’s a lot of stuff in sales, which goes really deep. You know who we are as human beings but and there’s very little, that’s new, but what is new, I think, for the first time ever is we now live in a world where the buyer has at least as much information as a typical salesperson and anything they Don’t know is just a Google click away, so you know where you think of 30 years ago, if you walked up to buy something in a shop or showroom or something you you’d really be asking the salesperson guide me through the information tell me the stuff that That doesn’t happen anymore in b2b b2c.

I don’t think in any arena. People really they know their stuff when it when they come to buy from us and so they’re really asking ok, I know all the stuff, but now I need someone. I can trust to make sense of that for me and to guide me to actually finally part to my passion and you’re quite right and it’s a long-term thing in a digital world, we can’t we no one, can take cash of anybody and run away anymore.

You know we will read Twitter and Instagram and Facebook yeah yeah and I think the other part of it, though, is you know the win win. I mean it’s all for the salesperson and I think that if you’re going to engage with a customer, it’s an exchange and if you both come up with the solution together and it’s a new add value, and all of that you should expect it to be win-win. From your point of view, Oh a hundred percent and it’s win-win in many ways, it’s witty you, we win on that particular transaction.

You win in terms of the long term relationship, and then you also potentially win in this total goldmine for all of us, which is in terms of the referrals and the testimonials and the repeat. Business from people. You’ve never met him and would possibly never even meet with all the cold calling and prospecting in the world without those recommendations so yeah. I think it’s it’s right at the heart of mine, my business, that that thing of getting testimonials and referrals definitely so any other.

Last turn things around persuasion because, obviously like when you were a professional magician right, I mean you’re, persuading people some degree to almost to suspend, suspend belief or whatever and and just buy into what you’re doing right. So I mean what you don’t: need techniques that came over from magic yeah there and they sort of in a way they’re sort of boringly, simple and but I think it’s the simplicity of them, that a lot of people miss.

I was talking to a personal trainer earlier this week actually, and I asked him what he thought. The best exercise in the gym was – and he said, the best exercise in the gym is what’s called a farmer’s walk, which is where you just pick up a heavyweight and you walk from one end of the gym to the other, and he says, but nobody ever Does it because it’s so simple everyone’s got people’s, I mean complicated and I think it’s similar in sales, so in terms of being a magician, it’s definitely about trust, it’s there and what good magicians learn is within seconds of meeting people within seconds of walking onstage.

You have to get people liking, you and trust in you. They don’t know anything about you yet, but if you can get a laugh, if you can get a smile, if you can get a nod of recognition, that is the single most persuasive thing you can do, because you know, as a magician you’re going to be asking People give me your wedding ring. Give me your wallet. You know I’m going to set that fire to a tempo note.

You’ve got to have a lot of trust there and I think, in terms of sales, bring you back to it to the real world. So some of that’s about how we relate to other people, but I think some of its some really simple stuff about. How do you dress? I mean you know, is your dress? It’s your dress on brand. Do you look good, but the number of sales people I’ve seen who turn up looking a bit sweaty, you know, and then they sort of fumble around in a bag for an old knackered brochure, and it’s so easy to get that stuff right.

But no well, not nobody, but hardly anybody does it. So if you do do that, you you really stand out, so I think it’s really really simple. I suppose the sorry to sum it up quickly. If you only have 60 seconds with somebody. What would you do in those 60 seconds to win their trust and then just behave like that? All the time yeah, I think that’s a great it’s one of my it’s one of myself boxes as well, is that the ideas that you’ll never be ducked points for looking too good like being well-dressed or whatever you won’t get tough points for being overdressed, but you Certainly get dark points for being underdressed and for being polite, graphically correct all those simple things.

You know that you know that people a lot of people, unfortunately, because we live in this pseudo casual culture today. They think that they can throw all of those out the window. Yeah, absolutely, and – and I do mean that thing about on brand by the way – because I think some businesses brand is a t-shirt and jeans. That’s but they’ve got to be really good jeans and a really good t-shirt. You know some businesses suit and tie, and so on or really smart business dress suit or something so it is about the brand I’m in a really good example, I think, is if you went to a tarot card, something if you went to someone and she said He said, oh, I haven’t got my tarot cards today, but I’m going to about yourself anyway, walk out, you wouldn’t pay the money.

No there’s nothing. I don’t wan na offend anybody, but there’s nothing cars that does any. But you expect that you know you want to see them and those mysterious images, because it’s all part of the trust and we’re exactly not that word sails with our brochures, our website, the way we dress it’s the same phenomena in the mind, that’s fun to have To listen daily, this has been a fascinating conversation.

I know we could talk for a lot longer hey before you go to things, I’m going to get you to tell people a little bit more about yourself, but I got ta. Ask you, who is your favorite magician going on so my favorite magician that everyone listening to this would know, and probably even including the states is Darren Brown, of course, who’s taken the world by storm for the last 15 years, or so. He is just what I mean: he doesn’t define himself entirely as a magician, but he is just the most wonderful thinker and performer and writer and artist.

He sort of irritatingly talented so he’s the best that everyone listening to this would would know and if you’ve never seen him live, go and see him. It’s a masterclass in how to hold and entertain and persuade an audience excellent minds. Tommy Cooper there you go [ Laughter, ], so Lee tell people a little bit more about yourself, your company and how they can find out more about you. Well. My company is me, I mean on the on the international headquarters of my business and my website is invisible, advantage, calm and, and I’m a primarily 80 % of my work is, as I speak at the conference’s.

So so so I suppose anyone who’s got a sales conference or an internal sales meeting coming up where they need a speaker, who’s, devilishly, good-looking and great fun, okay, be sure, and then about 20 % of what I do is workshops which come off the the speaking. So I’ll sort of go to a conference and speak and then some of people say: can you work with our sales team or our leadership team, and so I do that quite a lot.

So that’s that’s what I do and how people can get in touch. Yes, if you have any difficult call, EEGs you’ll also make them disappear right. This is John golden says. Pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM, it’s been fantastic. Talking with Lee Warren in London, see all again for another expert interview really soon. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved in the conversation, love to hear what you have to say.


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Trap Tales – Obstacles to Success with David Covey | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from sales pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM, and today I am delighted joining us from Utah. Is David Covey how you doing David, I’m doing great John? How are you excellent and David? Is the author of trap tales outsmarting the seven hidden obstacles to success and that’s what we want to we want to talk about today, because I mean let’s face it.

You know people struggle a lot a lot with why they’re not where they think they should be right in in their career in their life whatever, but they don’t always they don’t. They don’t always have the capacity to figure out for themselves what it is, that’s holding them back. So can you talk to me a little bit about what was the? What was the origins or the genesis of trap Tales yeah? That was exactly it.

My business partner – and I had Stefan – you know that we co-authored the book. We play a lot of chess together, yeah in chess. The purpose of you know the way to win in chess is to be several moves ahead of your opponent right and actually get them to fall into some traps that you set for them, that you hope that they do. You know they don’t see it because you’re thinking several moves ahead of them.

So so we really like that as a metaphor, and we thought you know go, isn’t that what life is about. You know what life or work life you know or family life. Personal life is about traps that we fall into, and I don’t know if you’re familiar with the force field analysis. Basically it’s the analysis of saying for any initiative. You kind of have your current state, where you’re at sure the desired state where you want to go and you have driving forces or initiatives that are taking you there and then you have a restraining forces and most of time well I’ve found.

Is people really focus on the driving forces and the initiatives to try to help you go from you know here to here right? They don’t pay as much attention to the restraining forces. So it’s the equivalent of like having one foot on the accelerator and another on the break I mean there is not to put you know your foot stronger on the accelerator. You know the pounding it. The answer is to pull your foot back from from the brake.

Really, that’s that’s preventing you, so we like to kind of think of that traps. In that way, they’re really they’re straining forces there the obstacles of the barriers that are preventing us from achieving our goals or reaching our G, their dreams that we want. So because a lot of people I find, I don’t know whether it’s it’s always been like that, but particularly now it seems to be that people drift a lot or they just sort of.

Let’s see what happens and they’re not very proactive about moving their career forward. Whether it’s in sales, whether it’s in whatever but they kind of outsource to faith, that’s what I always called it like outsourcing your destiny to fate. So to talk to me about a couple of the traps like you’re one of the first ones, is the relationship trap right yeah, so we have in the book. We have. You know seven traps, but we’ve created a course: that’s more oriented towards businesses.

So let me focus on some of those sure. If you don’t absolutely, I keep it more business oriented. So one of the the first traps is the busyness trap and that’s drowning drowning, the thick of thin things mmm. We say the thick of thin things, because it’s not the thin things are really not the important things. There’s the non-essentials. There was a study done by the the workforce front that looked at the work that we do the interactions of work and they found that half of the interactions that we have a work are non-essential.

You know they’re just really not that important and if you think about it, you know with technology. You know in tech, back in the 85, they had a study that was done. That said, hey with technology advances coming, you know we’re going to only be working like 30 hours a week. You know because we’ll have so much more time because I’ll picked up, but it’s had the opposite effect. As you know, it’s actually increased the expectations.

So we have all of these things coming at us. We really don’t have a filter or how to manage it or how to control it and – and the answer is, the conventional approach has become a better juggler. You know just learn to juggle everything all the balls in your air and and obviously that’s not going to work. We have to learn to say no. I love the example of Apple for focus. You know when Steve Jobs came back for his second act back in 1997.

He he killed literally like 300 projects that people who were working on and he drew a matrix and he said we’re going to make two products for the consumer and we’re going to make two products for the professional and everything else goes mad. He helped get the company back on track, but it was because of focus. He was willing to focus the company, and today Apple is the most valuable company in terms of market capitalization and they sell most of their sales come from like seven or eight products.

You know it’s through like hundreds of products, but it’s the power of focus. So so that is really one of the traps that we have. Is that we’re just we’re busy, but we’re not really busy on the essential things. So why is that? And and it’s a it’s a it’s a theme of mine that I’ve talked about for years as well. It’s the idea of focus and but focus seems to be so difficult for people, because to focus you have to make choices right as you as you just outlined, and people don’t like making choices, because if you choose one thing you by default, unchoose other things right And people don’t want to do that.

So we talked today about how oh we’re so busy and we’ve got so many things going on but, as you say, a lot of its distraction or non-essential. How do you help get people to focus and to understand what are the important things and to set aside the others yeah? So I think that, first of all, you know you’re going to you got to help people understand that they lead their own life and if they choose to have an adhoc life, there they’re not going to be able to be they’re, not going to be very happy Because they’re just going to whatever happens to them, is what’s going to happen and they’re going to be very disappointed, so you have to help you have to help people say hey.

You know what you have control over your life. You know you’re, not a victim. You know you have yeah, everybody has some bad things happen to them and you always have things that you can’t control, but you can lead your life and you can lead your business and, and you can lead your your marriage, you don’t have to be a victim And so I think that’s the first you know step is to help people realize that they are the controller of their life and they can control their own destiny and then.

Secondly, I think that it’s really important that people think about what their vision is. You know where their direction they’re headed a lot of times, people they get, they get lost or they get distracted or they forget. We have. One of the traps we talk about is the career trap. You know and that’s where people settle. You know in the rare they’re, not happy, there’s really four aspects to a successful career.

It’s the financials. You know you want to be paid fairly. What you do that your mind? You want to have your mind engaged. You know you want to be creatively utilized, the passion is the heart aspect of it. You know you want to be passionately engaged and then you want to be able to feel like you’re, making a contribution, and so many people settle. They just settle in their job. They settle in their life and they they’re living at a much lower level than where they where they could be.

And I think that if you help them say you know see that if you can focus on your core priorities or the things that you really matter and let the other stuff just fall by the wayside, it doesn’t really matter. It really helps them. But my father used an analogy. My father said even a roaster, seven Habits book. He used the analogy of you know of the big rocks and he he had this jar and and it had rocks and pebbles and water and sand, and what what people found is that if you put the the pebbles and the sand and the water in first, You didn’t have time to put the big rocks in you know.

You didn’t have enough room, but if you put the big rocks in first, then you could fit in some of the pebbles and sin, but guess what? If you can’t fit in all the pebbles and sin, so what it’s nice, it doesn’t matter, and so that’s really about what our life is about is that we have to get the big rocks in first. You know, in order for us to you, know, to be successful and to achieve our our vision and our goals that we want.

That’s what really what this is about this book is about. Is you know if you’re, finding yourself stagnated or not achieving the success that you want it’s because of these traps, that you call it in yeah, and it’s in tried a couple of interesting things that you mentioned here about the ad hoc life and III feel that We live in in a culture now of non self accountability. If there’s such a word, but where everything is saying, nothing is your fault and everything is external to you, and that runs counter to what you’re into what you’re saying here and – and I, and I totally agree with what you’re saying so so is that is that A tough thing I mean whether you’re doing this organizationally or from an individual point of view, but to promote this concept of self.

You have to accountability. You have to look at yourself. First before you look at other people hold other people accountable. It’s the toughest day. The toughest thing in the world – and I was formerly at my father’s company Franklin Covey for seniors – that the first habit of the seven Habits is be proactive. And that means that you’re responsible for your life and you’re accountable for the choices that you make.

And you can’t blame others, and that is the toughest thing, because it’s we have such a society today and a culture today of wanting to point the finger at someone else to blame society at large or blame the government or or blame your parents. You know and and it’s it’s just very natural, it’s very hard to take accountability for your decisions and your choices. We like to call these traps, which hopefully makes people feel a little bit better because you could say: hey look, you did you know because a lot of times people you know they they they get where they’re at because someone their stupid mistakes they make.

But if you can start to think about it was like well, maybe it wasn’t so much a mistake. Maybe it was a trap. It was a trap. I got caught in the trap and we like that language because it helped people say hey. You know what you maybe didn’t even fully realize how bad this situation got, but it is the trap and part of the characteristics of some of the traps, and so we’re going to help you get a win you’re going to help you find a way and in The talk about these epiphany breakthroughs.

Yes, the new insights that lead to new breakthroughs in behavior and that’s what that’s what’s important is you can’t do the conventional approaches anymore? They don’t work. You have to do the epiphany breakthroughs that are going to get you to to the new level of thinking yeah, and I love here. I’m one of your subtitles here in one of your chapters and unfocus is the best things in life. Take time and again I love that message, because again it’s runs counter to the pervasive culture out there, the shortcut culture of where oh, no, you can have everything immediately.

You don’t need to. You know, work hard for it. You can just get it. That’s another thing. That’s quite difficult to teach people isn’t it that that, if things that are worthwhile, they actually do take hard work and time. Absolutely. I have a son, that’s playing basketball right now and and he’s got all that you know the natural skills for it, but he’s not at the level of where he wants to be, and he wishes that he could just jump from you know here here, but he Can’t you know he has to make mistakes and he has to learn and he has to practice and he has to work and he has to fail.

You know and and that’s just that’s the process of life, and I wish there was something that I could give him to help him. You know move this faster to speed this on, but I can’t do it and and it’s just how life works. So it’s it’s and it runs counter to our culture, because you know if we want an answer, all we do. Is we google it we get it we’re used to this instantaneous. You know answer and results, and most of life is unfortunately, is not like that.

At least the most important things in life – yeah yeah, I’m now with all this instant digital culture. It’s like people think, oh, I can just become famous and rich by not really doing anything. That’s right and you always hear the stories successful, they’re, successful stories. You know it’s, you know so many they went from. You know working at a grocery store and being living in it. You know 900 square foot apartment too sudden owning their own Island.

You know eight months later you know, and and but you never hear the stories of the people that you know. So those are the outliers you know, but you never really hear the stories of what most people have to do, which is really really hard work for a long time, continuous effort, and eventually you know because of their perseverance and so forth, they succeed. I have a quote big Steve Jobs fan mm-hmm.

I I think it was a great. I don’t he’s necessarily the nicest boss. You know, but I loved his vision. You know, I just think he was just so visionary, but he said. I’m convinced that about half of what separates the successful entrepreneurs from the non successful ones is pure perseverance mm-hmm. I really like that. I’ve been an entrepreneur, the last eight years of my life, and that’s that’s really resonates with me.

Yeah and – and I like also – you – also talk about change right and changes, obviously a very difficult thing, but we – and I think you deal with this – is we’re very good at rationalizing – why we shouldn’t change or irrational izing. Why we can’t change right now or the postponement piece where we want to change, but this just isn’t the right time so in six months time or next year, I’ll get on that yeah, so that that is, that is human nature.

You know is to postpone change and and and to delay it as long as possible. The problem is, is that if you do that, and you wait until, if external circumstances force change upon you, then your options are not very good. You know look at some of the fortune, 500 companies and a lot of them have rested on their laurels yeah and they just kind of think. Well, I can just keep you know doing what I’m doing.

Look at General Electric, I mean I’m shocked and surprised to see. What’s happened with that, you know a truly terrific amazing company for many many years, but is now you know, kind of really fallen in a big way, but I think a lot of it is it’s. Not just individuals his organization’s as well, no absolutely change as long as possible, because it’s difficult and and we’d rather stay in our kind of comfort zone or a little bubble right and the funny thing.

The thing that always amazes me is you know, organizations try and do it and people in in within those organizations try and try and keep everything very controlled the same but as we mentioned earlier, but but that’s not reflective of life right life. It’s a it’s constant. Is it constantly in flux? We don’t know what’s around the corner tomorrow, there’s a surprise and guess what, when it comes good or bad, we’ll deal with it and we’ll figure out a way forward because we have to, but in business we try to create this very controlled environment that totally yet You’re familiar with James Dyson, yes, he created Dyson that bagless vacuum.

So I love. I love him as an example of kind of how how business is done, or you know, or how you create new innovations, and he basically says look. It took over 5,000 prototypes 5,000. Potentates to finally get the perfect, you know vacuum system, and, and it was really a round failure – you know he’s just saying that. That’s that’s really what it’s about, and I think that that’s what we kind of fear is its failure is because we we want to be able to appear like we have everything figured out and you know there’s you know we don’t have any problem, you know and You certainly look at people’s social, you know, media and so forth, and it looks like everybody has a perfect life.

You have that you have a difficult life and you’re wondering what’s wrong with me. You know, but it’s not true. You know it’s all a facade. It really is, but the formula is really try, filler and repeat, and and and that’s really what we need to be taught more about in business and a life is about trying daily learning from that and then repeating any of the great innovations. You know that we we see today all all come from that model yeah and that’s an it, and that obviously requires a company to have a culture of where you can try things and and fail, and I guess part of it is to is, if you’re going To fail like fail quickly right if you care, if you see that there’s I mean I’m sure Dyson when he was doing all his prototypes, I’m sure there were ones where he was.

You know not that far into it and went whoops that not going to work. Let’s go another one early and obviously that’s one of the that’s one of the the traps in businesses that people prolong things. Yes, yeah. They prolong things they wanted. They wish things that you know weren’t that way, you’re familiar with the company Unilever, yes yeah. You know I worked for Procter & Gamble’s, so I used to compete against Unilever in the salt category.

They made laundry detergent, Procter & Gamble, made laundry detergent, but and this this is a story back in the 1960s, its containing the book called black box thinking. But after you Syed he’s a Brit, but anyway he wrote this. He you talked about the story about how the the nozzle, so you have a nozzle that makes the laundry detergent this was before this isn’t like in the in the sixties. You know this was before we had the little pods nation mmm-hmm outer, but the nozzle kept clogging.

So they took it to the mathematicians and, of course, the mathematicians. You know they’re so smart and they can just give us a formula and they and they gave him a formula and it didn’t work so they gave it to the biologist and then the biologist. They were willing to do trial and error and actually what it took is. It took four hundred and forty nine different iterations to produce this perfect nozzle.

It’s this lot, laundry detergent and so to me it’s it’s just. You know Pixar’s another example: yeah Catmull. I a lot of people, see Pixar movies, love, Pixar movies. Well, he says that when we first produced these movies, you know first start working. He says they’re not very good, they suck and he says our job is to take him from sock to non sock, yeah and – and we do that through the iteration process.

We we work, we work, we work until we finally get a great movie. So a lot of times you know we have this image of thinking. Well, there’s people out there that are just geniuses and then there’s me right and and so I’m not genius, so you know I have to I have to work hard, but everybody that has any great success in life has done it through work. Work work led the Beatles. You know we look at the Beatles.

One of my favorite bands was, by the time they got to America in February of 1964, in the Ed Sullivan Show they had performed like 1,200 performances that a Homburg period for 15 months you know – was they perform more during that period than most bands do in Their whole life, you know it wasn’t just yeah, they were, they were, they were geniuses, but they did the 10,000 hour rule. You know that black talks about it and and and it’s really it’s it’s there’s no shortcut.

Yes all work and if you think about it, there’s a the reality is there were probably 10,000 other Beatles out there who didn’t put in the hard work exactly so. This is a great great place to to conclude here, because I think you just touched on something really important as a takeaway is you know whether it’s organizationally, whether it’s personally or whatever, is that you have to start somewhere and then you have to try and try And understand that this is a process, not a I’m, not going to change my life, I’m not going to change my business tomorrow, I’m I can start the process, but it’ll be a process yeah, that’s right and and the one of the main messages in the book And in our program that we teach is the message of hope and it’s that anybody can change the trajectory of their life at any stage of their life.

Okay, so a lot of times. I think we think that oh I’ve, just you know I’ve gone down this road too far or I you know, I can’t change I’m 50 years old or and and it’s hogwash, you know we we can. We, we are the controller’s of our destiny. We can change our life at any any stage of our lives. I think we didn’t have to look at it and say I’m going to do it by making these small steps you know and and taking these small steps new year’s resolutions, the big mistakes that people make a new year’s resolutions as they set too many right step.

N or twelve and so they’re all forgotten by you know by the end of January or February. Oh, so I think the way that you in that change is really by starting small. Don’t try to take on too many things just say: I’m going to do. One thing what you know: one thing differently to affect some of the change and if you start doing that, then you start to build momentum. You start to get some success. It’s not instantaneous, you know, but to see some small successes and some small successes can give you confidence that you’re headed in the right direction.

Then you take another action and then you another action, but the key thing is to take action. You don’t don’t delay, don’t try to take too much action, but take some action that can help you propel you to your goal. Absolutely and if you choose not to take action and you choose not to do anything – that’s fine, but you have to own where you are in your life. It just accept that you’ve chosen an adhoc life, so you’re going to get whatever things are going to come at you and don’t don’t blame, don’t blame your spouse or your parents, or the government or city or whatever, for all your problems that you have exactly.

As I said, I calls on outsourcing your destiny to fate. That’s all my life to fate, yeah, okay! Well, listen! This has been fantastic, but before we go I’d like you to tell everybody just a little bit more about yourself, your organization and how they can learn more about what you guys do, yeah sure. So my business partner is David. Stefan Marv Deeks. He lives in Dallas, Texas, he’s originally from France, so he says Bonjour y’all Texas, but we started this company.

We were both at Franklin Covey. We started a licensing business, so we have opportunities to license intellectual property, the best intellectual property on the planet. Like content, like David Allen’s, getting things done in which we take all over the world, so check us out there at SM Capcom, and then we have our new program, which is called Tripoli, gist at work which emerged from from a trap, Tales book and a trap.

Ologist is a person who detects and avoids the workplace traps. It helps others do the same. So it’s our own term. We made it up. It’s called trap, just at work, calm and so check us out there yeah. I love it a night and I think you know make 2019 the year that you go and uncover all of these traps. So I would encourage you to check out David and his company. My name is John golden says. Pop online says magazine pipeliner CRM.

Thanks again, David, that’s been fantastic, look forward a pleasure, seeing you all again soon, thanks so much for having me John


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Getting Things Done! with David Allen | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from sales pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I am joined by David Allen, who is the author of getting things done? The art of stress-free productivity and he’s joining me from Amsterdam in Holland, the Netherlands, whichever you like to call it hey, do you know it Oh glad to be here, John thanks for the invitation yeah.

So David tell me your book, as we were just discussing earlier. Your book is sold, you know over 2 million copies and has been translated into, I think you said 38 languages or something so obviously it hit a nerve when you release this book about, you know getting things done and the art of stress-free productivity, okay, so productivity. Rarely do people associate productivity with stress free right, so tell me a little bit about what you mean by stress-free productivity.

Well, if you see Olympic athletes before they go into the final game, what do you see them doing? Stretching and relaxing mm-hmm, so the most relaxed state, where you’re, totally present and relaxed not distracted, is the most productive state to hit a golf ball from to do an Olympic event from to have a difficult conversation from or to have a conversation with a sales client And I’m really from right, where there’s nothing else on your mind, you’re totally present, so you can be present with them to find out who they are, what rings their bell and and engage with them appropriately.

So it’s about appropriate engagement really. So what do I need to do to get my head clear and the problem these days is: if most people are you trying to use their head as their office in your head to crap the office mm-hmm, so you know you’re trying to keep track of. If you try to keep track of more than four things, you’re screwed, you can be driven by latest and loudest as opposed to strategy. So there’s a real note for your salespeople.

I’m sorry! You got more than four things in your head. You will be driven by latest and let us not by who you ought to call right now or what you ought to do to spend time to think about. You know your strategies, yeah, and I know if I did. I love that point there, because one of the things that I find nowadays is like people love to tell us, and we all do love to say how we’re far busier than we ever before.

Right and – and I always say, are we really or are we far more distracted than we ever were before, because you know now we have a thousand things popping up on our screens and our phones and everything we can. We can distract ourselves that the you know every nanosecond if we want yeah it’s. The John is the stress of opportunity. Mm-Hmm, you know you’re getting relaxed if you get into a crisis, if your house or your apartment come, you know, goes into flame trust me you’re, going to relax because there’s only one thing you could do call live survive.

What’s the next step? Where do I go? What’s my outcome called get out of this place? What do you need to do and tires on your car and your taxes for the year and the person you need to hire all that all those get put on the back burner, so most people actually move into their zone and a crisis. I just discovered how you get into your zone without having to wait for a crisis to get you there. So so, let’s talk about that, then how do you, how do you get into into your zone without needing a crisis to get you there? You take everything that has your attention little or big, and you get it out of your head.

You write it down. You stick it into someplace that you know you’ll see sooner or later, and then sooner than later you decide. What’s the next action on cat food? What’s the next action on higher VP? What’s the next action on get a life? What’s the next action on? Should I get divorce or not, and you need to make those kind of clarification decisions so there’s five stages to how you get anything under control? First of all, you identify the stuff, that’s not in control mm-hmm! You know that’s the capture step, then you clarify okay.

What do I need to do about mom’s birthday? What do I need to do about hiring the my EP VP? What do I need to do about a potential divorce? You need to make those decisions which most people avoid like the plague, and then you say: okay, what’s the fair, and once I decide that I need to call my sister about mom’s birthday. I need to my divorce. I need to talk to my life partner about you know. What is he or she think about what we ought to do about this right now, and are you okay by that? So that’s a conversation so anyway clarifying the next action and the outcomes desired.

Step 2. Step 3. Organize the results. You can’t finish the thing the moment you think about it, mark a reminder of who you need to call what you need to talk to people about step before step back and reflect and review the whole inventory of the 16 errands. You need to run the six things you need to talk to your life partner, about the the forty-three things you need to do at your computer. Whatever you better take a look at all that inventory before you can feel comfortable about what you then decide step 5.

You need to review it step 4 and then step 5 is engage. What do I decide to do out of all that? Crap mmhmm yeah, all that stuff, that’s out of my head. I look at it, but most people are pretty smart and all you have to do is take a look at all your errands and you make a decision about which one to do all you have to do is take a look at all the stuff that you Ought to be writing on your computer or drafting or or doing whatever, and some part of you is going to be.

You know a good bit smarter, but the problem is if you’re trying to use your head as your office, which is a crappy office, and you got all that stuff banging around in there you’re not going to make good decisions about it, yeah yeah! No, it’s a highly it’s a highly cluttered and very disorganized office for most people. If you do so it it’s interesting, so part of a part of what you are really saying is I mean I think it’s a very.

If I go back to one of the first things you said because I always think this is a really important and critical piece is the things that are outside of your control right. We focus a lot and fixate a lot on things that we have absolutely no control over as opposed to you know it narrowing it down to things that we do have control away. Why do you think people do that? I don’t know a lot of people get addicted to worry, how stress and so they’ll find something to stress about whether it’s the weather or your boss, or your teenager or whatever.

But then you have to decide see. My mission in life is to create a planet where there’s no problems only projects mm-hmm all right, you give me anything, that’s a problem. I say why do you consider it a problem? It’s because you think it needs to be different than it is you’re, just not engaged making yourself nice, it’s quite simply. So what what are the things that you’ve got on your mind? What are the things that you need to manage and get appropriately engaged with? It? Doesn’t mean you’re going to change, the planet doesn’t mean you’re, going to fix all the things you want.

It just needs to be it. You need to get appropriately engaged with it, so you feel comfortable about what am I going to do it? What am I doing about my neighbor? That’s complaining about the tree that I just planted. Now that’s going to block their view right, there’s a project that you can call that a problem I say: look, what’s your project get resolution with neighbor not needs to go in our project list.

What’s your next step, talk to your attorney, talk to your landscaper talk to their landscaper em. What’s the next step, and most people avoid all that? That’s why that’s what’s creating so much stress out there? They have so many things they could be thinking about would like to be doing. You know coming after your parent and your kids two years old, but you want to get them into Harvard how many of your of your neighbors have already figured out that the the workshops their five year old, is going to then you’re missing out on.

Oh, my god, and so the stress of opportunity is what’s creating a whole lot of what the stress is going on out there see the world is fine, look outside your door right now, John yeah, the world’s not overwhelmed! It’s not confused. It’s only you based upon your relationship to it. I just figured out the algorithm or the formulas about what do you need to decide think about Park as an extra external system for yourself that allows you to stay clearer about all the stuff you’re engaged in and what do the things that I saw interesting on Your on your bio is so you you’re a black belt in karate right I was in my twenties.

I mean I’m still kills. I can still kill you in a second but you’re. A martial artists, yeah, I’m a martial artist to you so so be. We could have an interesting sparring session, but just going back to what you were saying there, I mean the essence of martial arts is that you really do have to calm yourself focus and get yourself into a calm state and when you’re in a calm and a Focused state, you can achieve lots and lots of great things, but but, like you, like you say in in what you were saying about your book, but you can’t focus on ten things at once.

Right all right. She could just get knocked out right. You can’t multitask, you can you, can you can switch tasks fast? Yes, you know come on John, if you get attacked by four people: you’re not going to fight for people that wants you one at a time, but very quick refocus, and so you can learn to refocus quickly. What you don’t want to is try to manage things that you can’t complete the loops while you’re dealing with them.

So then you’ve got all these open loops that keep pulling on your psyche that that prevent you. You know if you’re worried about three people that might jump you from the next alley that guy’s going to hit you in the face, because you you just got distracted right right so that that’s the that’s essentially that’s why I call this a martial art. That’s sort of the art of life of managing the flow of life’s work is, is how do I keep track of all the things that I’ve allowed into my echo system that are taking my attention and how do I free up my attention from them? Not to not to ignore them but to make sure I’m appropriately engaged with them.

In other words, if, if I don’t know do you have any pets, yeah yeah, dog, okay right? So if cat food pops it to your mind more than once, you are inappropriately engaged with your cat. If we need cat food, if you go to the fridge and put it on a post-it on the fridge that whoever goes the store, they combine canned food, we’ll get it next. It’s off your mind mmm. But meanwhile, if you haven’t done that, I need cat food.

Will pop in your mind, at 3 o’clock in the morning in the bed, when you can’t do scrap about so again, unless you’ve externalized all of these things, so that you can evaluate them, you objectify them clarify them. Have them as an inventory for your in. You know for how you evaluate things on a regular basis. You can’t take a power nap you’re, going to take an avoidance. Nap yeah have a have a power beer you’re going to take an avoidance beer.

You look like the same beer. They’re very different. One is hey. Look at all that stuff. I’m going to have a beer instead. Is that yours, better than a whole lot of other things right, I enjoy it. It’s great fabulous, but so I mean and and and part of this is right is, I think, sometimes our people get caught up in this idea of like so. My desk is piled with and I’ve got all this stuff going on and I’m so busy and it’s almost it’s almost an avoidance of what you’re talking about here and it’s really prioritizing right and really looking at what needs to get done and where and looking at What what are the important things that you need to do and get those out there? You know China.

I want to be I’m going to be a bit of an asshole about this and say yes, people focus too much on priorities. Mm-Hmm. You know a lot of people should not set goals, they need to clean their toilet. No, if your day-to-day is out of control, don’t try to think about bigger stuff. No one’s going to do is frustrate you and create more guilt, which you don’t need. It’s going to undermine your productivity, so use it to be in control of whatever has got your attention.

Little big, personal professional. If I ask you hey, what’s on your mind, you say where I want to be ten years from now: it’s a fabulous! What’s your desired outcome, or do you want to be ten years from now and I’ll? Have you just define that as best you can, let’s say great? What’s the next step, if you had nothing else to do right now, but to move on that to get closure on get progress on it move the needle, would you go to a computer right now? Would you go to your life partner right now? Would you go to the hardware store right now? What’s next so outcome, an action become the zeros and ones of productivity.

Right like what am I trying to produce with this client? What what would be that you know if you’re in a sales context? What do I want to have true an hour from now mm-hmm after this conversation? Great? So what’s the next step? What do I need to do about that? So this is a whether you’re a nine year old or the CEO of a global corporation I’ll coach. Both it’s the same questions hi. Would you like to experience for the party today great? What do we need to do? Hi? You know.

What do you want to have true in terms of your your the company you’re, trying to run right now? Look at we’re. What’s the big picture when you grow up, what do you want to be great? What’s the next step, who’s got it. So these are the same questions. It’s it’s. Basically, the thought process or the cognitive process, the thinking, a decision-making process that allows you to clarify all the stuff you will out come into your ecosystem, mm-hmm, and so basically, what you’re saying is, I you know, obviously to think you want to achieve, and then you Need to actually take action and look at the next best step towards achieving that.

Well, you don’t have to take that action, but you did define what it is. You don’t want to avoid it because you don’t know what it is right. You just don’t do it because they’re other and more important things right now, but it’s still on your list mm-hmm to do when I have time and is to keep evaluating that against all the other things that you might need or want to be doing, but that You don’t end that process, that’s not something that you put to bed and never have to keep doing no you’re doing that forever.

Mm-Hmm. Every time you decide to do something you just decided to do a to not do a lot of other things, and – and I think and that’s that I think, is something that I hope everybody takes note of, because that’s one of the things I talked to people A lot about is when you make choices, and this is why I believe, but a lot of people don’t like making choices, because when you choose something you by default, unchoose other things right and we done and we like to have all of our solutions.

If you don’t make decisions, you just chose not to make decisions about any of that right. So you’re constantly, and it’s not a matter of whether you’re making decisions not to know which decisions are you’re making. If I’m avoiding deciding what to do about a potential divorce or about hiring somebody and more about what to do with this client, that’s still a decision. You can’t stop decision-making you’re just making.

That is that the right decision, or is that the best decision is that the decision that will get this off your mind outsourcing to face yeah. Actually what you need to do is is add source. You need to source your intuition mm-hmm. That says: okay, given all that stuff, that I have to do, what is my still small little inner voice telling me is the thing that will give me the most value. Take a nap, have a beer call that client sit down and draft this proposal now.

So I that’s why I say I tend to push up against people who have a simplistic answer to how do you set priorities, because it’s so subtle? So as soon as you decide to take a nap, you decided that was more important than anything else in your life yeah, but you can only feel good about what you’re not doing when you know what you’re not doing John. So that’s the problem most people have is they have no clue of how many things they’ve committed to that they’re not aware of now, but they feel or pulling on.

So that’s a lot of what my methodology does is get them to become more conscious about. I need cat food, I need life, I need a new vice president. I need you know. I need tires on my car to handle my next vacation. That’s on my radar and do you find or do you feel as we come up against the end here, and do you feel that this is becoming more of an issue I mean, do you feel people are becoming, maybe more, you know avoiding more durkas will abort Before opportunities, you have the more you’re going to avoid nice right and because we live in, we live in the world.

That’s bombarding us. We we’ve got a big opportunities. How many things could? How many think could you and I right now if we stop doing this, how many think could you and I surf on the rip right now that might add value to what’s coming up on your calendar tonight or tomorrow or this afternoon or whatever come on yeah? It’s just now, that’s infinite. I mean I had an encyclopedia britannica, but I could look up stuff and I had that bulletin board.

On my laundromat I could look up the cool things and I had a telephone that I could talk to my girlfriend when I was 14 for two hours. So distraction is, you know, is kind of a universal potential opportunity. It’s just now. Your girlfriend is available 24/7 and he or she is checking his checking in with you and they’re checking in there. You know it’s like this is not a one. This is not a one time to our phone call.

This is a 24/7 accessible to all those dings. Then may show up and that’s highly addictive. It’s so there’s a there’s, a real problem with with all of that that opportunity and it’s it’s highly addictive. And how much do you think, then that, but but it’s also giving a lot of people a get out of jail card for themselves right because they just go on like you know, I can’t get anything done well come on.

You know, that’s just BS. You know. There’s people just unconscious, I’m sorry, I can’t can’t say much about that other than now. You know to that point. You know not to be too facile at that point. A lot of these opportunities are are just creating the greater challenges for people to decide what they’re doing and what’s important and what strategic, what really matters III meant social yeah. I got more than a million followers on Twitter.

You know, and I hang out on Instagram a little bit – Facebook or whatever, but that’s just a cocktail party to me, so I don’t have to go to cocktail parties. I’ve just got one, so I just want wander in and out chat when I won’t add things when I won’t look at things whatever. I think that’s really cool, what a great world we live in, that we have those opportunities. That’s global because I have a global network of people that I you know play with and interact with and engage with, but I don’t have any commitment to do anything other than wander in or wander out, mm-hmm.

So, and if you really know what you’re doing you know, how much time you ought to give that and how much importance you ought to give that and whether that’s just an engagement, fun thing to let your brain rest and have some fun and socialize what’s wrong With those things, those are great as long as they’re done in inappropriate proportion so that you’re balanced about what you’re doing and not using those as a way to avoid the article you need to write or the person that caught the difficult conversation you need to trigger.

You know, or whatever mm-hmm well, listen David. This is this has been great. Actually I could talk for a long more a lot longer, as I think there’s a this is a great message and I think obviously it’s a message. That is, I think, it’s more important than ever right now, because I do believe a lot of people are hiding behind chaos and not taking taking action in their lives. I I could see examples of it every day, so I think it’s about getting things down.

The art of stress-free productivity, so thanks David for sharing some of those insights with us today, thanks John for the invitation happy to do that happy to share all this information with whoever is interested. Have they come back whenever you might want me yeah, absolutely and just before we go, how can people find out more about you getting things done come? Is our website and you’ll see a lot of our global partners? We have a partner in the Ireland and the UK.

That’s doing public seminars there, as well as in 60 countries. So if you just go to our website, you’ll see where you might want to take a public seminar or get coaching individual coaching about this methodology that I have an of course get my book Danielle edition. Getting things done, you know it’s the Bible. They know of all this absolutely and it’ll also be available in the sales part library for purchase.

So again, thanks David John golden says: pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM, see again for another expert inside interview very soon.


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Storytelling For Sales Success with Brian Parsley | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from Sarris pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined by Brian parsley, who is in lovely Charlotte North Carolina. How you doing Brian top of the morning to you, Brian’s Irish as well? Well he’s not he’s South African there / American right at this age, I’m American all the way right: okay, so Brian’s a professional career! So he you started at the bottom.

Worked your way up from temporary staffing agencies, you did door-to-door selling and from that you you experienced and founded successful startups, and now you are consulting you, help organizations with sales, optimization and another sales related and leadership related things. Well, I thought we talked about today. Is okay, we’re at the at the beginning of November? A lot of people have, you know, just under two months, left of selling for this year and desperate, trying to close hit their quota or or hit those accelerators.

So closing is obviously a big issue right now. So Brian, when we were talking beforehand we’re talking about the use of how to use a storytelling, can actually increase your your probability of closing. So do you want to talk a little bit about that sure? I think that, as we go here to the end of the year, there’s a couple things we need to make sure we keep in check number one a lot of times. People see the end of the year as time to start pulling back holidays here in America, Thanksgiving and then creative and even overseas.

You stopped Africa as an example. No, you know December till mid-june where things just shut down, and I think that’s a mistake. If you want to have a strong first quarter, you need to end, and at least 10 the momentum going into that fourth quarter. So that’s one day now just want to throw out there yeah just push harder than you’ve ever pushed ever in your life. This sort of thing when you talk about people are looking too close when you talk about closing in a moment, but storytelling in general isn’t necessarily closed concept.

I would, I know from experience, has been this our goal itself. Professionals is not really the cell. Our goal is twofold: number one to connect. I want to be a connector, I’m going to look for ways and opportunities to say: oh gosh, this guy is an insurance agent. Maybe he needs a realtor, this guy’s a doctor. Maybe he needs an insurance agent. So I’m constantly pivoting my my contacts to make introductions to be what they’re nothing your business together is one thing, but I want to be known as the guy that puts them all together if that makes sense, yeah totally that’s why networking events networking not that tricky People go to there and and and and they tend to hang out with other people like them, but but there are great opportunities to meet folks just by going out there trying to connect with other people.

The second thing is: what’s your biggest goal in sales? Well, you might let chop this down. You ready. John yep goal is to manipulate other people. That’s what you’re supposed to do as a salesperson to manipulate, but there’s a little back into that before you start throwing tomatoes at me. It’s manipulate with good intent right and the best way to describe that is, if you’re, a parent. You manipulate your children with good intent and guide that to the decisions that you believe in know in your heart are the most important things for them to keep them safe, ldiots smart as they grow older.

So keep that in mind here as we go forward. You know, I think, it’ll make a lot more sense when we talk about story time. No, that’s that’s great, because one of the things we used to use in in another role I was in with another company, is one of the rules of communication. Is that you know people believe conclusions they come to by themselves and anything you or I can say to them right so part of your job is to guide them to come to those conclusions and, as you said, if you manipulate a good intent or you guide, Somebody to conclusion with good intent, because you know this is going to help them.

Then that’s that’s a good thing to do a hundred percent in you’re dead on. So let’s talk about storytelling, here’s, the fact the fact is facts are forgot. Facts are forgotten. Stories are retold and when you load down the when you look down the prospect or your customer with facts, figures, values and the features of benefits and all that Mister forget it they don’t. You know why, because they really don’t care the business infomercial czar so powerful to do nothing but tell a story.

Don’t your native of tomorrow with it. I’ve never trusted tomato all the way down the tape, but you start reading it go that could happen yeah. I want that yeah because they’re establishing a pain through a story. You live the story by curiously and they don’t talk about the price. They just tell you the story and then you want it, and I also believe that by telling stories it helps people relate now.

Actually, I take it back before I tell you the story part. I want to share with you an example, and this is a real example that happen for me. How do you connect with people? Well, one way to do – and this is going into your answer to the question about November and event year – closing things you have to make sure that you’re connecting with people and there’s a pre called preparation is a big thing that a lot of people need to Get better at mmm what I call rapport investigation before you go meet with your clients.

You want to connect with them. Part of the storytelling is connecting right, so I want to find ways that we can connect together. So how do you do rapport investigation or internet stalking, as it’s known, we of course, that LinkedIn and Facebook, and things like that, and – and certainly I would never say to you that I’m looking up your Facebook right now and go? Oh, my goodness, he loves, he loves Italian food.

Hey John! I like Italian food. Do you that’s creepy yeah? But if I do see like as an example, I’m a freemason and if I saw on your page that you’re part of a freemason group, you know or a club, then then what we call it objects. But then I would look at it and go. Maybe I’ve thrown out a sign or symbol or something anyway be pretty hard to do. The funny handshake go through virtually yeah [, Laughter, ].

So then, but I’ll give you an example. So I was with the financial advisor and we were going on a call to a lady, and this is something I throw in a road kind of show with these folks and she’s, like one meeting this lady’s the third time she’s not friendly, she sees me. I think out of obligation gee, I can’t seem to close her and I don’t know what it is. I’ve done everything that’s like well, let’s look her up on Facebook and sure enough.

It was locked down. I couldn’t see anything but I said, click the about likes and we moved in their lives and they were all kinds of cool things like. I think it was two wall with this and chill all a rescue wow. That’s weird, and I don’t why she just. I have a twat, I do, and I say do is: take a picture of your Chihuahua put it on your desktop right and when we go before we get started just open it up see the manipulation with good show up sure enough.

She opens it up and lady goes. What is that Chihuahua? She is yes, that’s my chihuahua. Now you wouldn’t want to do this. If you didn’t have a, are you serious best friends, they created this report and they were able to push through and then you shelah WA as the common denominator or the story or the vessel and the nice. And so just going to say – and the nice thing about that Brian is that that has that has taken some of the tension and maybe the wall away.

So now you can have a real conversation. It doesn’t mean that you’re going to sell to them or close them just because you have the Chihuahua but you’ve created the best environment. I will tell you this. I always say that you can act professional, but you got ta talk, Fredman mm-hmm, you know like people, people can see through that. I have a 13 year old and I was just telling me the other day. I said her name’s Alexis unless it out you’d have to be careful the way you come across.

I know your heart. I know your intent, but sometimes you come across as an authentic, hey. How are you – and I know, you’re trying to be polite, but it comes across fake itself. Professionals, I see it every day. Do the same thing, not intentionally it’s not their intent, but it’s what people see you have to remember that. You know you know 52d. I think it’s 54 % of communication is nonverbal or 53 and another 38 % is.

How do you say it yeah? So maybe vast majority of our communication aren’t even the words. That’s why stories are so powerful. No there’s five parts to any story, and this is nice. It’s really easy. Once upon a time there was the hero, the hero went on a journey right and on the journey they met a challenge that could be a dragon. It could be her hair, whatever it is mm-hmm, then the hero somehow someway figured out a way to slay that dragon, and then they lived happily ever after mm-hmm.

What’s fun at I’m a hero. When I was a journey by the challenge you know just solve the challenge, then there’s the five parts to a story everybody’s like that everything’s, very just like that, so we say, and every sale is like that. Well, here’s why once upon the time we had a customer very similar to you, they were looking to achieve this output X Y Z, and this is the challenge that they face. This is what we did for them, and now they don’t happily ever after.

So what you do is you create stories around objections? Your costs too high. You had a bad experience in the past. Only use this other competitor. No, we don’t have a need right now. So let’s say we used you in the past and five years ago and and we have bad experience, you know I totally understand. In fact I have a customer very similar to you. Then we’re looking to you know, build what I don’t know what we’re selling but sure we’re looking to achieve and they had a challenge.

The challenge was: we dropped the ball. The challenge was our company failed them, but then I did a little bit of research and I figured out it wasn’t the company. It was that Account Executive, and this is where they dropped the ball, and this is what we did for them, and not only do they love what we put into play, but now there are a loyal customer because they know that not only am I responsible, but I’m accountable for everything that happens within this organization and then so I’m basically saying that won’t happen to you, but the truth of the story, their inner mind.

You know envisioning this so that they’re going to say, oh well, that makes its automatic proof yeah and you’re. Not and you’re not trying to deny that there were issues in the past right. I mean you’re as you you’re, explaining how you learned from those how you overcome them and how you’ll ensure that they never happen again and when you said about you were just saying about the authenticity: that’s more authentic! Isn’t it then saying like oh well? No, you know, we’ve never had issues like that or that absolutely one it’s much or more, that you just say yeah.

We had those kind of issues and here’s what we did to solve it. I you know get more frustrated when I have a problems for where they want to give me the reasons why I’m wrong, when I’m a customer, yeah and or the excuse, it’s not just apologize and move on and take responsibility, and you know I always love this. I say I’d rather take and I work with companies. You know helping them create more loyal customers.

So when the biggest challenges is they ignore or they try to avoid upset customers. In my my I would postulate imma take a a very upset customer over and okay customer, because I think an upset customer and turn them into someone loyal way quicker than a transactional customers a way to defuse. It is to obviously agree with them. Now I’ve used two different examples, but but they both come down to the to the end.

Where I had a lady just escalated up to me, they said, can you please deal with her? She cuts us and screams and that’s like hey. My name is Brian, and so I’m sort of asked me to give you a call and then she let inter and I’m talking about. I don’t think she took her breath for three minutes straight, just yeah. Every other keywords: okay and – and I didn’t say a word in fact – I didn’t even acknowledge service list mm-hmm or anything just quiet and at the end I was quiet even after she stopped and if she thought I hugged up she’s like Hello, that’s like go.

I’m here and she’s like well, what do you have to say about that? And I said I’m silent because I have nothing to say I said I’m. I can’t believe you’re not more upset than you are now when you say that to someone and it comes across something weird. I said: how dare you agree with me? Yes, I can’t believe you’re not more upset than you are, because if it were me, I wouldn’t even have this phone call.

I would just move on right. The fact that you are taking this phone call shows me that you care you care enough, that you want to make sure that you, let us know, and even though I may not be able to save you as a customer, and never what this to happen to Anyone else, in fact, to tell you that this happened one out of ten thousand times it’s irrelevant, because you’re the one and it’s a hundred percent of you and I get that she’s and and then typically what happens when you do that? Not only do you are you telling this story by, you know relleno wrinkle, but but typically they’ll, then back off and say well, what do you think we should do and and in the goal, obviously is to manipulate your customer and I’ll share with you? This other part of the story assist, have you ever gone to a restaurant or store, and you had such bad service such a bad experience that you swear.

You never go there again, oh yeah too many times, but is it plausible that no one else in that organization subscribes to that same belief that that person created four year, meaning that one-off experience could be that individual then yeah we’re judging the whole cup that one? Incredibly important every other, actually you have with the customer every time good and in fact the once entertainment but still get food.

Let’s answer our phones good afternoon, thanks for the food table, yeah absolutely and it’s it and it’s intro because, as you said there is you know if people are upset. If customer you know, if we’ll take ourselves right, if we’re upset with an experienced, what is the one thing that we really want we want to? We want to be acknowledged and we want to be heard right. That’s what we want and when people fail to do that, it just makes you more angry and then you just go away and you say forget it, but if they acknowledge it and they listen to you, then they there’s a chance of rehabilitation and not just that.

As we know, I let me ask you about that particular particular customer. Did they remain a customer and lay one of your loyal secretary or the crisis control guy so when they have an escalated issue, this is a pretty substantial a lot of times. My clients will call me into but again you know feeling like you’re feeling valued appreciated, appreciation as a currency. That’s accepted around the world and and it’s so easy to give, and yet you don’t really share it very often, because I just as an aside on this, because I had an experience recently where I had to follow this was my owner to follow up on something That I, that I thought was wrong and I was really annoyed about it and I called up and the guy who dealt with it.

Walk me. He was really calm. Very friendly, very empathetic walk me through it and then showed me actually at the end that it actually was my fault. What’s that actually my fault, but the way he did it in the end, I was like, oh my goodness, you’re correct. I’m really! Sorry, it’s actually. My fault and I was, and I had started off pretty angry and I’d. Actually, you know maybe being a little less class and denied to say.

Listen, I’m really sorry for snapping at your beginning. I didn’t understand, and I thought I thought you guys were in the wrong. It was actually me and after that I said, what’s your name, he gave me his name and I went immediately and sent a message to his. Yes, exactly snap, so I mean I sent a message because I was like: oh, my goodness, this guy handled that brilliantly he handled it fantastically yeah, but those are four G between typically whether the right or wrong in by the way.

Let’s say they are right. How do we react to respond to customers, even if I know you’re all grace? Yes, you know I have to say. I totally understand how you feel and I would probably feel the same way. I saw it, but you know quite honestly, let me walk you through the process and then let’s reevaluate, where we are and because I want you to be a customer I really did and and so I think that if you’re dealing with people, here’s the other thing, That’s a self professional if you’re going to start a relationship with a new customer here would be my advice.

You tell them. I want you to know John right up front that I will let you down at some point and you know that’s not my hope. It’s not my desire, but I mean human and by me it should be the business, it could be the deliverables, but I will let you down. The difference is, is that you will have my mobile number. You can call me 24/7 and I’m going to solve your problem and I’m going to take accountability as well as responsibility when something happens, because that’s the difference because everybody tries to be like we’re better than them, we’re all you’re, not that special, yeah and and so Tell me a little bit about how so, as you said earlier, so we’re in the situation towards the end of the year.

People are, you know, they’re getting ready for vacations or they’re in parts of the world. Like you know, it’s Ireland’s, the same as like South African that you know you won’t get anything after mid December right people are just switched off, so if you’re, if you’re selling and it’s Thanksgiving or whatever and people are your prospects are going well, you know, let’s Just pick this up in the new year, you know what are some of the ways you can help to make it more urgent that they address the issue this year and they kind of give you a little space.

Well, ironically, we say it’s one of them that people disengage and November all the way through the end of December, because that means they’re not getting hounded by every other salesperson has given up yeah. I see a better window to actually talk to people because in thir maker chances are they work. You know what I might call CEOs in the morning before 8:00 and then in the evening after 8:00. That’s when I reach out – and I coach as CEO of a publicly-traded company and he’s actually just sent me a text before our called said.

Let’s talk tonight at 8:30 Friday, night 8:30. That’s when I got ta talk to her right and, and you have to get into any salesperson – that tells me oh no, after 5:00 is my time. That’s cool enjoy being broke, because this is a different time. Now it’s connected world and you have to be available. They hate you for that, but that’s the truth and yeah. So it should be your question: how do you do that? Well, number one ask you know and if you’re from overseas awesome so call you until I get a restraining order and I’m going to constantly follow up and one of the things that I recommend even an email or voicemail say John.

I try to reach. You can get you, I know you’re busy. I don’t hear back from you. I assume you want me to follow up next Monday and I can show you. I have a guy for 14 months that I did that with and he finally got back with me and he said first, I want you to know. Thank you. I appreciate your due diligence. Second of all, he said it wasn’t you. It really was me, and this is what was going on I’m ready to to me and that’s important.

I have I’ll give you one more job. I want to show you something here. I wan na be careful, you don’t see his name, but this is a CEO that I’m retained. By that you can see the Blues. I think anyway, right that you, hopefully you can get all the best time he’s texted me back, it is was August 26. Was the last time that he texted me back, but I text him tried to reach out here’s the update. He pays me everybody, it’s my responsibility as a salesperson to and now you to give to follow up, and do it not to say well, it’s busy as the end of the year.

You need to call your clients and set it up. Give them that sense of urgency and do it with great. You can’t go in there and be bossy. You have to be subservient, we are but kissers, that’s what sells people are and if you can’t do it don’t do it don’t do the crime, it’s fun yeah. It’s so funny what you just said: they’re back! If you don’t answer this, I presume you want me to follow up Nick, because I get these all the time where I get like three in a row and the third one is seeing, as you haven’t answered.

My last two emails: this is a lot, I’m not going to bother you anymore and I’m like great thanks, but it’s completely the opposite approach. Right call, other people I was actually in cops. Where were we? We were in Charleston South Carolina two weeks ago. These guys Raley guys – and I I want to say, sick, but it’s like this sales process. I’ve ever seen they have a they. Have this young lady, that’s out on the street with a little club dressed up and she’s in a princess outfit.

You know samples of soap and they were selling like so like handmade so different. The other thing she’s enjoy free samples. So so my daughter’s, like oh I’d, love to have some so she’s. All that’s awesome. She make them in house, that’s what, if she’s not might get greasy on your head, why don’t you come in and we’ll wrap it in Mysore box? You take back to the hotel, so this plan. Even me, I’m like it’s really nice and he’s just really guys tours like hey, I need, or they start showing me like the skin care stuff.

Everything by the way was seven hundred and fifty dollars beautiful. It’s working, obviously a target of princes. Given me a free sample, so looking at Israel for the answer and if you’re willing to push through – and you have that confidence, why do I want to be? I want to meet with you for going to pitch me. You want to any value. You want to connect, call me up, let’s meet yeah and by the way I love because we’re bumping up against the end here, but I love that idea of the fact is that yet, there’s probably all around the world and certainly you’re around the states, as probably Salespeople who are giving up saying, oh I’m, never going to get through to Brian.

At this stage you know Thanksgiving is coming up or whatever, and the one piece of advice is to those motivated people listening or reading is yeah they’re clearing the field for you. If you keep you keep trying to talk to you keep trying to get to Brian because of all these other people who’ve quit. You know, guess what you’ve just got a far better chance of being heard. Yeah before I even responded to there, you go we’re pretty well.

Have you did you check your bank account since we started talking so listen Brian? This has been great. Thank you for the insight before we go. If you want to tell people a little bit more about yourself from what you do, that’ll be great. Well, I’m probably the worst myself, but I will say this Brian parsley, which is my website. You can subscribe and I send out a freaking you every week, usually they’re couple minutes all ideas, best practices, all based around sales and customer service.

Excellent. My name is John golden says. Pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM Brian. This has been fantastic. Hopefully you come back and we’ll talk again soon, love the conversation and see y’all again soon. Thank you.


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Neuromarketing and Sales with Patrick Renvoise | Sales Expert Insight Series

My name is John golden from sails pop online says magazine, I’m pipeliner CRM and today I’m joined by Patrick wen Hua’s, a who is the author of the upcoming book, the persuasion code and your marketing can help you persuade anyone anywhere anytime. So welcome Patrick hey good afternoon John, so Patrick, you have been talking about neural marketing and you have you know you ordered another book before and you’ve been in this in this area.

You know for a long long time, so tell me a little bit about what is what is different about your book. That’s coming out in September, the the persuasion code. So what happened is about 17 years ago there was a new branch of marketing that was born called neural marketing, and here is the promise of newer marketing. The promise is that traditional marketing does not really work. Why? Because in traditional marketing, here is what we do.

We ask people: what do you want and then based on their answers? We won’t build a product and later we will create a strategy to sell that part, but the reality is that people don’t really know what they want. As a result, traditional marketing is very often detailing, and the promise of newer marketing was very different. The promise of newer marketing is that we would ask people what do you want, but we will not trust their self-reported answers.

Instead, we could measure directly on their bodies, values, physiological changes that indicate what people truly want so 17 years ago, the world was on fire when people started to use this, because the promise was just too good to be true, and so, if you fast forward 17 Years later, neural marketing has exploded in order today there are over a hundred companies in the world that offered various kinds of services around the home marketing, but it has not really delivered on its initial promise and it has not initially delivered why? Because there is not a single unifying model that explains what you find when you do these physiological measurements.

No word anybody can do various kinds of physiological measurements and by the way, those techniques go from very simple, very inexpensive ones. Where you can measure, for example, the eg on the head of people or you can in measure their emotion based on how to contract the 43 muscles on their faces, or you can measure how their skin changes react resistance. So all these measurements are very easy to do, but what’s really hard is how do you interpret them in a complete? You know sales and marketing approach.

In other words, how should an advertiser change its sales and marketing strategies based on those measurements? So, unfortunately, the initial promise of no marketing has not really delivered. So when we wrote our first book, we suggested that there might be a model that helps you guide everything you do not read them to make it really effective, but we had not tied all that model to all these measurements.

So, what’s continued in our new book is that we are now explaining how it really works, in other words, it’s a little bit like if you are talking about physics. As you know, in physics we are trying to unify the two basic physics model: the traditional physics, bye, doc, bye I’ll help me with his name. It was a British guys, future new Neutron, you use it and the quantum physics. So there is not a single unifying model yet, but we’re getting closer and closer well, there is no single unifying model of sales of marketing and our model, we believe, is their very first one.

That just does that. You know it’s a complete model that explains how people use their brain to make buying decisions and based on that, it helps any entrepreneur. Anybody who has to convince other people about what they need to do if they want to be more successful in sales and marketing. Right so so explain to the people, their listeners, who may not have come across this before or not really pay too much attention.

But why is it that you can’t trust what people initially say they want, or why is it that that neuroscience plays such a big role in really understanding what you know how people make decisions as opposed to what they say sure well think about it. If I ask you, imagine you walk in the restaurant and instead of offering you a menu, I ask you: what do you want to eat tonight? You see how embarrassing how difficult it is to figure out what you really want mm-hmm, whereas if you see that many of you, oh yeah, the chicken looks really good on the menu today.

So when people have to self-report what they really want or what they really like, they are going through the funnel of expressing with words what they want, and that does not allow them to really access the unconscious. As you know, in the mind, if you think about it, there is really a conscious part, which is only five to ten percent of who we are. And then there is this big iceberg underneath it, which is 90 percent of we are, and we really have access to that unconscious and asking people to access that unconscious.

By using words, you know, self-reported words is mission impossible. So the reality is people who really know what they want. However, our body does so, for example, when you get scared, you know you get the first signs of fear even before you’re aware that you’re scared, and today there are a number of tools that we can use to make those measurements. So, in essence, those measurements are allowing us to poke into the unconscious of people, and the techniques are very reliable in the past they used to be very complicated.

In other words, you needed a supercomputer, you needed 10 PhDs to run it and a big budget. Today, all these techniques admitted you know very affordable. In fact, some of these techniques are even accessible for free on the web. So how would you if you take this over the sales for a moment right, so you know sales people have to ask a lot of questions and do discovery and really try and uncover what somebody what a prospect is looking for.

So how does it play into that because, like you said I mean, maybe this is a difficult process for the actual customer. Yes, so in the case of myself, it way now is, if you take that idea and put it in the context of a one-on-one meeting between the buyer and a seller, I mean that what the very first task are the seller is really to understand what are Some of the negative thoughts that are going into the mind of the buyer, I mean in our book.

We call that the pain mm-hmm, but the unconscious pain we believe, are more important than the conscious pains and I’m going to give you an example right now. Imagine the seller is selling home, delivered pizza and the buyer is the average consumer of pizza mm-hmm, most people when you ask them. So what do you work when it comes to a pizza? You know people can talk about, they will tell you. I want extra pepperoni and I want cheese etc, but in reality there is a small company in the u.

S. That figured this out. But four years ago they figured out that not one pain of people buy home. Deliver pizza. I know almost like the unconscious pain. Is the anxiety of not knowing when the pizza will arrive right and again, it would be almost. It would be impossible for most people toward that, but we can measure it on a bun and figuring this out that no pizza shop came up with a slogan and never struggle.

It was 30 minutes or less for extreme mm-hm, and that little place is now known. As Domino’s Pizza – and they became number one now W speaking number one, not because they make the best pizza but because they were able to diagnose that pain and then they build a complete organization whose unique purpose is to eliminate that. So this is the case of Domino’s, going back to our case of a single one on one person selling the job of the sales guy is to read between the line of the answers that the person will that the person will given, but so, if I am That person trying to sell you, Domino’s Pizza, I’m going to ask you questions about, so you know you’re going to be home alone tonight.

What are some of the thoughts that go through your brain etc? And I’m going to try to force you to admit that you have this unconscious pain, but, as you can imagine, it’s a very difficult job. In other words, it’s a job which is more the job of a psychologist than it is the job of a salesperson, and that’s why salespeople typically, are not very good at doing this, because we train ourselves people to be good talkers.

Unfortunately, most of them are not good listeners and to throw a good diagnostic of that pain to find between the line where the consumer really wants. It takes somebody who has the capacity to listen very deeply, and it takes the capacity of people can ask the right questions and and a prospect or a customer. It’s one of the value drivers will reward you for uncovering something. You know a problem or a pain that they either didn’t know they had or did not weren’t aware that it was that acute right.

So that’s really where you logged in yeah, when you do that diagnostic of the pain properly there are two major benefit. The first benefit is it’s a soft way of selling. You know where you don’t have to say: well, we have the best product, I’m the best sales guy, no you’re, demonstrating your expertise, not by what you say, but by what you ask for by the quality of the questioning that you drive. So that’s the first thing.

The second thing is asking question: is the best way to develop rapport right, if you think about it, the people that are interesting, a lot of people that talk about himself. There are the people that talk to you about you. So, what’s the best way for me to talk to you about you, if you ask you question and so and so getting back, pivoting back a little to the neuro marketing piece. So when you look at at most companies marketing today say software products or whatever.

What do you see is the big problem with the kind of traditional marketing and how could people flip that using newer marketing? Well, the problem is that marketing well done typically is very expensive. I mean you need to do big surveys. You need to question a lot of people, so I think a lot of people think of marketing as an expensive task, but when I think about it, for us, Noora marketing is really what can help people differentiate between the what people think they want and what people Really want inside the unconscious and for a large company.

This is invaluable. You know I’ll give you just one example: we’re working for Avon, for example, and you know trying some of our techniques they’ve been able to see sales increase by up to 40 % for some of the shampoo products, because a lot of the ads that they were Doing were too focused on the product itself, etc, but it was not really addressing some of the core pains or negative emotion that resides in the brain of our consumers right.

So that is really the promise of no marketing it’s to help. People do focus everything. They talked about which typically centered on the mimimi, I mean most people, if you think about it most people when they talk about the products and services they talk about who they are and what they do, mm-hmm. In fact, if you look at all websites, most websites include a tab which is called who we are and another tab, which is called what we do, but the critical information that is missing there is: why should the customer buy right, and what we have seen is That noir marketing is the fastest surest way to get companies to quickly focus and now down on why the customer should buy.

So what are some other examples that you’ve seen of where somebody has done this? Well, where they’ve changed their marketing approach and and really hit the you know, hit the target. You know there are no many examples, but if you’re talking about Apple, for example, right the computer and phone company Steve Jobs by the way used to say we don’t do marketing at Apple, because the consumer doesn’t know – and I know better than them what they want.

So we’re going to build it if you’re, not in fact not completely wrong, we’re going to sell a lot of it, but Apple has been the champion of this now think about it. I’d like to take you back about 30 years ago. Why would people want to buy an Apple computer thirty years ago? There was only one reason think about 30 years ago. Yes, the reason is slightly different today. That’s why I’m bringing you back a few years back? Why would people buy a Macintosh when the main computer? Well, the main competitor at the time was the regular PC at the time they it was very specialized.

I mean there were people, maybe actually yes, designers and people like that who bought Max’s right and a few students. You know what was the main reason. Why? Because it was easier to use, you know what, if you were buying your PC, he didn’t have a degree in computer science. It would be very hard for you to use it right, so Macintosh make it easier for people so Apple use. That claim, in other words, the reason why you would want to buy your Apple computer years and years ago, was easier to use and slowly over time as computers became easier to use Apple to endorse another crime, and why would people buy an iPhone today? There’s still only one reason, but it’s slightly different.

It’s no one here to use because every four years is to use – and you know what it is: it’s cool to use cool yeah. So this again so Apple decided once and for all in the 35 year history. They went from a t1 claim, is it to use and they slowly switch to cool to use over a period of time, but they did that because they know that had been one crime. You know being able to write the book. Why buy enough? On the only one chapter mm-hm and hammering that chapter you know cause when Apple’s 20 years ago was selling a mirror.

It was always you know easy to use by creating that repetition by making it clear as to what is that one chapter in the book title? Why buy an Apple Apple has been extremely extremely successful, so Apple was using some of the concept that we are now explaining from a purely scientific standpoint for for many many years right so, but so basically BAM based on that, then, are you saying that most companies Should really look at uncovering that that one or two reasons, real reasons why a customers should buy from them absolute and it an it, and as you say, it’s not the obvious one in terms of it may not be they the product itself.

It may be something you know totally tangental even to it right absolutely I mean, if you think about it, easy to use and a Macintosh computer. It has nothing to do fast. Delivery has nothing to do with the pizza itself. In other words, unfortunately, if you’re selling your commodity, you will not be able to find what makes you unique in the product itself, because, by definition it’s a commodity, so you’ve got to find that one reason why people want to buy it and it’s going to be Outside of the product, functions and features itself, and all the companies that are successful have destroyed it for a long long time.

That’s excellent advice so before we finish up today, give me a little bit more information about when your book is available about your company about yourself and how people can learn more about you right. So our first book is the valuable you know it was written about. Fifteen years ago, so it’s still available. Our new book titled, the persuasion code, will be available in mid September, is published by ye, and the information is already available on amazon.

Com and what we are is we are the only advertising agency in the world that uses no marketing techniques to diagnose the pain of The customer and ours fine, the true motivation that drives people to buy. Then we are a strategic, consulting firm. We guide the choice of companies on what is that one chapter in your book and we train people on all these concepts and the last thing we do is we have a small, creative arm.

Then, once we have agreed on all this concept, they actually rhyme. So the concepts are, what are the pains in the brain of your customers, and how do you diagnose that then? The second concept is: how do you differentiate your claims numbers? How do you make your solution appear completely unique in the eyes of your customers, even if you’re selling commodity, we call that the claims? The third concept is, how do you demonstrate the game? No, it’s not enough to say I have the best product.

How do you actually prove it and how the volume so pain claim and gain, and the last step is: how do you deliver to the primal brain? In other words, how do you deliver your message to the unconscious of the consumer? Okay, so we packages we package, our services, so that small companies and not company alike, can see benefit in applying a model that is again completely anchored in the science of the human right.

Yeah, it’s fascinating stuff and I’ve had the pleasure of seeing Patrick speak before so I would highly recommend that you, you check out the sales brain and check out Patrick and check out his book and I think you’ll find it extremely fascinating. So listen thanks again, Patrick for joining us. Today. We look forward to to your book and to seen the model in you know its glory coming out in September and then learning more about this fascinating subject.

So thank you for joining us today. My name is John Gould and sales pop online says magazine. Pipeliner CRM will see all for another expert inside interview really soon. Thank you, John. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our You, Tube blog and then comment get involved in the conversation, love to hear what you have to say.


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Reveals the Persuasion Code with Patrick Renvoise | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined again by Patrick Renoir, say how you doing Patrick very good. Thank you. How are you excellent and Patrick’s new book has just come out – hit hit the bookshelves Amazon everywhere the persuasion code? How neuromarketing can help you persuade anyone anytime anywhere anywhere anytime and Patrick yeah? You wrote your first book 16 years ago and, as we were saying just before we came on air you’ve been kind of writing.

You and your cohorts been kind of writing this book now follow-up book for 16 years, so how’s it taking so long. Well, it’s taking so long because the very first book I wrote was actually the first book on neuromarketing, so we almost people didn’t even know what new marketing was. We did not invent the word we adopted it. You know the first time we heard it because we felt it was the best explanation of what we were doing but Justin.

You know the amount of things that have come out, that being you in the last 15 years may be overwhelming, and we felt we had to write really a second book. So what are some of the major things that have evolved or changed, or that you’ve discovered in the interim that really made this new book compelling? Well the number of things. But the first thing is when no marketing first started to appear.

The promise was just almost too good to be true, in other words, people have known for a long time that marketing does not really work, because marketing is about asking people. What do you want and then you base your product development and your sales and marketing strategy and what people have self-reported so because we know people don’t know what they want. You know billions of dollars are wasted on failing marketing campaigns every year, so the promise of normal marketing was that by measuring directly on the body of people, values physiological changes that would we would get a really good indication about what they really want and, as a Result, you know everybody would save money, all marketing campaigns would be way more, effective, etc, but it has not really been delivering opens Provence, and one of the reason is that it’s very easy to get update.

I know what you can put electrodes on the head of people can ask them question: you can make these physiological measurements, but how do you interpret those and how do you actually deliver marketing insights that generate results? This is more complicated than what people originally thought and in Tooker’s, or you know about fifteen years, to realize that without an interpretation model, people do not really see the benefits of no marketing and that’s the subject of our second book.

We say yes, no marketing is great. We can measure all these things, but do not expect to get miracle results, especially if you’re not using a predictive model, and you know our second book addresses this issue, and it also gives a complete scientific picture of the model that we first published sixteen years ago. So so now we go an emotional level of detail about justifying, for example, yeah I’ll.

Just give you one example upon me that you’re, why do stories work when you’re in sales? Why do beach bar pictures more effective than text? So we simple yet scientific explanation about all the things that a lot of people were doing intuitively in the past, but they didn’t know where they were working mm-hmm. So let’s talk a little bit about that. Maybe I’d learn it a little bit more about the the model and and how you can actually start to measure and interpret these things.

Sure so, first of all, model is based on the work of Daniel Kahneman was the winner of the economy, Nobel Prize in 2002. More recently, in 2017, one of his students, guy by the name of Richard Taylor, also won the economy Nobel Prize, and you went further in this. So we’ve based our model on the work of these people and here is the fundamental discoveries that they’ve made, which is that we have two personalities if you want in other word, you know where everybody has multiple personality disorder and there is the rational us, and there Is the primal us Kahneman called it system, one for the primal us unconscious brains, the brain that helps you? You know deal with digestion, breathing a low-level body function and then, on top of that, you have a much more evolved brain called the brain and he called that system too.

And although we think that we make decision using our smart brain in reality, the impact of our primal brain on the rational brain is greater than the impact of the rational brain on the karmic way. So what we have done is we have studied in you know, for about 20 years now the working principles of that primal brain and because that primal brain by definition is ancient. You know we share that brain with very primitive forms of lives like reptiles, because that brain is so ancient and internet did not exist back then that brain can only be triggered by one of six stimuli.

So we teach people how this human eye works and our expertise is in translating those sixteen I into what people should do in sales marking and further than the stimuli. We have translated those stimuli into four steps that everybody should master, go ahead. No, I’m just going to ask you so so what you? What you’re saying is so, as you said, I mean we believe, because we all believe that we’re very highly sophisticated people that you know all the decisions we made.

You know we rationalize them and all of that kind of stuff, but what you’re saying is: there’s a it’s a lot more primal. How we do it may be our physiologically reactive things. I mean that actually is a much bigger driver of our decision-making process. Is that right, yeah, that’s correct! In fact, Antonio Damasio was when one of the world expert on the role of emotion of the brandy said we are not thinking machines that feel we are feeling machines that think so all of the emotions you know they win over.

All the rational aspect of our decision-making and even further than the emotion the issue of survival is key to all the decisions we make. The only thing is we’re not even aware of it but you’ll take prize. For example, I mean everybody right now, he’s happy to pay five dollars and get a cup of coffee at Starbucks. That mean stuff is pretty naira. However, if Starbuck was going to put the price of coffee at twenty dollars, people would start to hesitate to buy a coffee there.

Why? Because they know that he’s they spend too much money on their cup of coffee. They might not have enough money to pay the rent which down the road is the modern version of survival. So again, all these have all these phenomenons happen at the level of our unconscious, but they have biological manifestation, which are undeniable. You know if you look at even the most primitive forms of life. Primitive forms of life respond with the fight or flight syndrome, or the approach or with drugs in the first form of life is a unicellular.

And if you take a unicellular here and you put a drop of sugar close to it, that unicellular will be drawn to the sugar, because it’s a source of energy, so that unicellular will do everything he can to move closer to that stimulus of the sugar. Now take the same unicellular and drop a drop of acid close to it or you know them juice and that mini cylinder will move the way. Well, we even being still operate the same way.

You know, if you put in front of my nose a very desirable item, like the you know, the latest iPhone or the latest Nexus subscription or whatever my natural tendency will be. I will be drawn towards it and, of course it’s the job of Apple. If I buy the iPhone to create that positive emotion that draws me towards it, but those two meters that are created by companies that are trying to sell you something fundamentally, they operate at the same level as the phenomenon that happens in the unicellular.

It’s all about the biology of the equation yeah, it’s very interesting because I was just thinking cuz when I was having this conversation with some of the other day, and it always fascinates me one of the biggest purchases people make in their lives is a home right And yet think of the buying process for most people you go around, you look at a few houses and then you decide one because you get a feeling from it and you maybe only spend like 20 minutes in the place and next minute, you’re already you’re putting In bids and everything and – and you spend more time, as you say, probably deciding, will I get the iPhone S or X or whatever? Then you you something very interesting, you said you have the feeling that some things happen, but for most people guess what they don’t.

Even experience that feeling in others that feeling stays below the level of consciousness and at the end of the day, they might decide that they, like this house, because that house, at the exact same smell that the cookies that the grandmother cooked years ago mm-hmm, which is Why it’s a good tip for people is to always bake cookies before people come to look at your house, it’s a guess and they make sure the house is warm and they make sure you know that the light is on.

They make sure that the house is staged, so yeah absolutely right to show us what happens in Damacio said that he said we make emotional decisions and then we rationalize nice, but not vice versa. And again, I know you would take me a little longer than discussion, but we have all the scientific proof that this is undeniable. So what is it that most day, what would you be your advice? Obviously, you know get the book and read it, but what would be your advice to people who are looking at their marketing today? How can they tell whether they are movie, whether they are able to do what you’re describing here or whether they’re completely missing the mark and well yeah? I could give you tons of examples, but so this, the 16i, are very precise.

In our presentation I mean one of the stimuli is the concept of visual again. This is nothing new, because we all know that picture is worth a thousand words, but the you know the brain is mostly visual. People say that about 80 % of all brain activity is about processing images. By the way, if you look at the opposite of visual in terms of conceptual data, it would be text right. No, if I want to tell you about the concept of a cat, I can either show you a cat, or I can tell you the word cat.

The third way to communicate the concept of cat would be to hand you a cat, so people learn in three ways: it’s called visual auditory kinesthetic. We have three blogs for learning now most companies today when they communicate the value prop. They do it using words when you wrote our website and you see a long explanation about what they do. Well, unfortunately, that primal brain is mostly visual.

So what that mean? I’m not suggesting that you need to visual the product, but you need to come up with a visual that becomes a symbolic representation of the value proposition. So, for example, if I sell a really very complicated software solution to you know a large industrial organization and one part of my value proposition is it will save you money, then the concept of saving money? How can I represent that, so I may use a picture of a safe.

I may use a picture of a banknote, but that’s what I mean by this. You know being able to go the next step. I could say it saves you money, I’m using text. There is no emotion in it or I can actually show you a picture of a banknote. Give you another example. If the core of your value proposition is easy. Well, I can talk about easy all day long or I can show you a picture of the easy button from Staples or if your value drop is one-stop shopping.

I could use those. We saw me nice because the Swiss Army knife, you know, becomes the symbol of the screwdriver, the core corner and the plate. So going one step beyond the simple value pub that uses normally word using a visual escape. So that’s that’s one thing. Another concept would be you know today. Most people talk about the fact that they are a leading provider. Are the problem? Is all your competitors are saying the same thing so that does not trigger that primal brain? Because one of the similarities contrast, you know, the primal brain is any contrast to see that all the other guys do this, but you only only one will do that.

Now, of course, it’s easy to say, but if you have a commodity, how do you create that uniqueness and we didn’t run to people that they have to scratch their head? They have to find that uniqueness at all cost, to increase the amount of contrast so that your customers see all the other solution as the green apple and then suddenly, you become only write up and that only red apple is what triggers the decision of people yeah.

It’s it’s interesting because, as you say, I mean the you know, the perception at least in most buyers of the most products and services are highly commoditized today right and that they’re easily. So you can easily walk from one to the other and there’s no big big deal. So I see where you’re, today, more than ever, that concept of finding something that stands out for you is absolutely critical and what you’re saying there is it’s the only way you’re going to elevate yourself or catch anyone’s attention, otherwise, you’re going to stay in the in The swappable well imagine you’re selling water, and you have two competitors are selling similar water.

Then your probability to win the deal is only going to be one third. So if you want to go beyond that simple probability, you’ve got to find a way to say what’s different about your water mm-hmm and most people again when they are in the commodity business. Most people shy away from doing it because they are looking for the differentiation in the product itself and you won’t find it because by definition, it’s a commodity.

So you’ve got to find a way to say that you will deliver on the water for free or you will do you know your packaging is recyclable or you’re. The greenest provider of you know water or whatever and amazingly enough, regardless of if that differentiation, that uniqueness does not belong to the product, it will still create enough appeal in the brain of a customer that they might decide to buy from you.

So one of the things you say in in in the in in the material surrounding your book is obviously when somebody approaches it first and goes neuromarketing. Oh that sounds very complex. I don’t know if I could do that, but you’re saying that it. Actually, you have been able to make this simple, where people can actually understand how to do it and actually deliver it yeah. In fact, I think we made a big mistake when we named our first book neuromarketing that the subtitle was understanding the back button inside your customers brain.

We assumed that people would understand what no marketing means. So in our second book we decided that is not the right title and that’s why we named our second book, the persuasion code and it’s really about understanding how people used our brain to make buying decisions. And it’s really about not only using science but simplifying that science. You know Kahneman the guy one, that you’re kind of mean normal price I just mentioned was a very feller.

The only problem is he didn’t make his knowledge very accessible in all. His book is pH D plus plus level reading, and I had to read his book of course many times and most people that have opened up his book. They gave up after 30 percent of the book just because it’s so complicated, so a big part of our job. In connecting that making that connection between the world of neural, you know, researchers on the brain and the world of marketing was to simplify the equation.

In fact, what we found was the most difficult in that simplification was to make it visual. In other words, if you look at our book, we have one poster at the beginning of the book, which summarizes everything and for us to be able to come up with the right visual metaphor, to explain what we do. It took us a long long time. You know it’s a little bit like the teachers that we had at school right.

You could have a very, very smart teacher if he cannot make his knowledge accessible, everybody hates him, and nobody is good in any subject and the teacher that could make their knowledge more accessible, regardless of the complexity of the concept that they were teaching. They are the one that are really helpful, yeah ya know cuz. I remember one teacher from when I was very, very small and he used to draw little stupid little pictures in chalk and on the board.

You know and illustrate everything with these ridiculous little stick figures and doing stupid things. Everybody remembered everybody knew what he was talking about and you know why, because at that moment it is more appealing for the primal brain of the audience. Then the neocortex then the rational, when in fact I don’t know if your listeners can see the camera, but this is our old poster, so we know poster you know we had a stop point and we had an end point and that end point was the bite.

But another – and you know second book now: we’ve rendered the whole thing a little bit more sophisticated and we’re using a completely different metaphor. In fact, it’s a more scientific metaphor that we’re using excellent ok. So in the last couple of minutes, Patrick, is there anything else? You’d like to highlight about the book well, and just maybe I relate the book to what’s happening today in the news.

As you know, a lot of people are concerned about what Russia and China are doing, and you know a book is releasing the exact date of the book. Release is September 19th and will receive an order from China from the Chinese publisher. We already bought 5,000 copies of the book, and the second country that bought a book was Russia, so on one hand I’m very excited because it’s good for us. On the other hand, I am very concerned because it’s probably the last people I would wish they would know about that – sign they’re already really good, but I am worried about knowledge.

Well, I think the only way to to counteract that is for lots of people in Europe and America to buy it too. I mean you know when, when you understand how market ears are trying to influence your decision, then you can start to protect yourself. If you know against how people influence you, in fact, as a professional in that field, I am always questioning myself when I want to buy something. I’m going.

Okay, I’m mind buying it because the message was very good or I might buy it because it’s really going to help my life and sometimes I can say no, I don’t want it because I don’t need it sometimes, when the message is that good? Well, I still buy that ice cream. Although I really know it’s bad for me. Well, everybody needs a little bit of ice cream again. Well, listen! Patrick again! The book is the persuasion code.

How neuromarketing can help you persuade anyone anywhere anytime available on all the online booksellers it’ll be in the sales pop bookstore as well, and the release date is, as you said, September 18th. I think yes excellent, so I really encourage you to go out and if you get a chance to listen to Patrick speak he’s an excellent speaker too. So thank you very much for for joining us today, Patrick thank you and you have a good day yeah.

Thank you. This John golden says pop online says magazine. Pipeliner CRM see all again for an expert interview really soon, so I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved. In the conversation. Love to hear what you have to say:


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Neuromarketing and Sales with Patrick Renvoise | Sales Expert Insight Series

My name is John golden from sails pop online says magazine, I’m pipeliner CRM and today I’m joined by Patrick wen Hua’s, a who is the author of the upcoming book, the persuasion code and your marketing can help you persuade anyone anywhere anytime. So welcome Patrick hey good afternoon John, so Patrick, you have been talking about neural marketing and you have you know you ordered another book before and you’ve been in this in this area.

You know for a long long time, so tell me a little bit about what is what is different about your book. That’s coming out in September, the the persuasion code. So what happened is about 17 years ago there was a new branch of marketing that was born called neural marketing, and here is the promise of newer marketing. The promise is that traditional marketing does not really work. Why? Because in traditional marketing, here is what we do.

We ask people: what do you want and then based on their answers? We won’t build a product and later we will create a strategy to sell that part, but the reality is that people don’t really know what they want. As a result, traditional marketing is very often detailing, and the promise of newer marketing was very different. The promise of newer marketing is that we would ask people what do you want, but we will not trust their self-reported answers.

Instead, we could measure directly on their bodies, values, physiological changes that indicate what people truly want so 17 years ago, the world was on fire when people started to use this, because the promise was just too good to be true, and so, if you fast forward 17 Years later, neural marketing has exploded in order today there are over a hundred companies in the world that offered various kinds of services around the home marketing, but it has not really delivered on its initial promise and it has not initially delivered why? Because there is not a single unifying model that explains what you find when you do these physiological measurements.

No word anybody can do various kinds of physiological measurements and by the way, those techniques go from very simple, very inexpensive ones. Where you can measure, for example, the eg on the head of people or you can in measure their emotion based on how to contract the 43 muscles on their faces, or you can measure how their skin changes react resistance. So all these measurements are very easy to do, but what’s really hard is how do you interpret them in a complete? You know sales and marketing approach.

In other words, how should an advertiser change its sales and marketing strategies based on those measurements? So, unfortunately, the initial promise of no marketing has not really delivered. So when we wrote our first book, we suggested that there might be a model that helps you guide everything you do not read them to make it really effective, but we had not tied all that model to all these measurements.

So, what’s continued in our new book is that we are now explaining how it really works, in other words, it’s a little bit like if you are talking about physics. As you know, in physics we are trying to unify the two basic physics model: the traditional physics, bye, doc, bye I’ll help me with his name. It was a British guys, future new Neutron, you use it and the quantum physics. So there is not a single unifying model yet, but we’re getting closer and closer well, there is no single unifying model of sales of marketing and our model, we believe, is their very first one.

That just does that. You know it’s a complete model that explains how people use their brain to make buying decisions and based on that, it helps any entrepreneur. Anybody who has to convince other people about what they need to do if they want to be more successful in sales and marketing. Right so so explain to the people, their listeners, who may not have come across this before or not really pay too much attention.

But why is it that you can’t trust what people initially say they want, or why is it that that neuroscience plays such a big role in really understanding what you know how people make decisions as opposed to what they say sure well think about it. If I ask you, imagine you walk in the restaurant and instead of offering you a menu, I ask you: what do you want to eat tonight? You see how embarrassing how difficult it is to figure out what you really want mm-hmm, whereas if you see that many of you, oh yeah, the chicken looks really good on the menu today.

So when people have to self-report what they really want or what they really like, they are going through the funnel of expressing with words what they want, and that does not allow them to really access the unconscious. As you know, in the mind, if you think about it, there is really a conscious part, which is only five to ten percent of who we are. And then there is this big iceberg underneath it, which is 90 percent of we are, and we really have access to that unconscious and asking people to access that unconscious.

By using words, you know, self-reported words is mission impossible. So the reality is people who really know what they want. However, our body does so, for example, when you get scared, you know you get the first signs of fear even before you’re aware that you’re scared, and today there are a number of tools that we can use to make those measurements. So, in essence, those measurements are allowing us to poke into the unconscious of people, and the techniques are very reliable in the past they used to be very complicated.

In other words, you needed a supercomputer, you needed 10 PhDs to run it and a big budget. Today, all these techniques admitted you know very affordable. In fact, some of these techniques are even accessible for free on the web. So how would you if you take this over the sales for a moment right, so you know sales people have to ask a lot of questions and do discovery and really try and uncover what somebody what a prospect is looking for.

So how does it play into that because, like you said I mean, maybe this is a difficult process for the actual customer. Yes, so in the case of myself, it way now is, if you take that idea and put it in the context of a one-on-one meeting between the buyer and a seller, I mean that what the very first task are the seller is really to understand what are Some of the negative thoughts that are going into the mind of the buyer, I mean in our book.

We call that the pain mm-hmm, but the unconscious pain we believe, are more important than the conscious pains and I’m going to give you an example right now. Imagine the seller is selling home, delivered pizza and the buyer is the average consumer of pizza mm-hmm, most people when you ask them. So what do you work when it comes to a pizza? You know people can talk about, they will tell you. I want extra pepperoni and I want cheese etc, but in reality there is a small company in the u.

S. That figured this out. But four years ago they figured out that not one pain of people buy home. Deliver pizza. I know almost like the unconscious pain. Is the anxiety of not knowing when the pizza will arrive right and again, it would be almost. It would be impossible for most people toward that, but we can measure it on a bun and figuring this out that no pizza shop came up with a slogan and never struggle.

It was 30 minutes or less for extreme mm-hm, and that little place is now known. As Domino’s Pizza – and they became number one now W speaking number one, not because they make the best pizza but because they were able to diagnose that pain and then they build a complete organization whose unique purpose is to eliminate that. So this is the case of Domino’s, going back to our case of a single one on one person selling the job of the sales guy is to read between the line of the answers that the person will that the person will given, but so, if I am That person trying to sell you, Domino’s Pizza, I’m going to ask you questions about, so you know you’re going to be home alone tonight.

What are some of the thoughts that go through your brain etc? And I’m going to try to force you to admit that you have this unconscious pain, but, as you can imagine, it’s a very difficult job. In other words, it’s a job which is more the job of a psychologist than it is the job of a salesperson, and that’s why salespeople typically, are not very good at doing this, because we train ourselves people to be good talkers.

Unfortunately, most of them are not good listeners and to throw a good diagnostic of that pain to find between the line where the consumer really wants. It takes somebody who has the capacity to listen very deeply, and it takes the capacity of people can ask the right questions and and a prospect or a customer. It’s one of the value drivers will reward you for uncovering something. You know a problem or a pain that they either didn’t know they had or did not weren’t aware that it was that acute right.

So that’s really where you logged in yeah, when you do that diagnostic of the pain properly there are two major benefit. The first benefit is it’s a soft way of selling. You know where you don’t have to say: well, we have the best product, I’m the best sales guy, no you’re, demonstrating your expertise, not by what you say, but by what you ask for by the quality of the questioning that you drive. So that’s the first thing.

The second thing is asking question: is the best way to develop rapport right, if you think about it, the people that are interesting, a lot of people that talk about himself. There are the people that talk to you about you. So, what’s the best way for me to talk to you about you, if you ask you question and so and so getting back, pivoting back a little to the neuro marketing piece. So when you look at at most companies marketing today say software products or whatever.

What do you see is the big problem with the kind of traditional marketing and how could people flip that using newer marketing? Well, the problem is that marketing well done typically is very expensive. I mean you need to do big surveys. You need to question a lot of people, so I think a lot of people think of marketing as an expensive task, but when I think about it, for us, Noora marketing is really what can help people differentiate between the what people think they want and what people Really want inside the unconscious and for a large company.

This is invaluable. You know I’ll give you just one example: we’re working for Avon, for example, and you know trying some of our techniques they’ve been able to see sales increase by up to 40 % for some of the shampoo products, because a lot of the ads that they were Doing were too focused on the product itself, etc, but it was not really addressing some of the core pains or negative emotion that resides in the brain of our consumers right.

So that is really the promise of no marketing it’s to help. People do focus everything. They talked about which typically centered on the mimimi, I mean most people, if you think about it most people when they talk about the products and services they talk about who they are and what they do, mm-hmm. In fact, if you look at all websites, most websites include a tab which is called who we are and another tab, which is called what we do, but the critical information that is missing there is: why should the customer buy right, and what we have seen is That noir marketing is the fastest surest way to get companies to quickly focus and now down on why the customer should buy.

So what are some other examples that you’ve seen of where somebody has done this? Well, where they’ve changed their marketing approach and and really hit the you know, hit the target. You know there are no many examples, but if you’re talking about Apple, for example, right the computer and phone company Steve Jobs by the way used to say we don’t do marketing at Apple, because the consumer doesn’t know – and I know better than them what they want.

So we’re going to build it if you’re, not in fact not completely wrong, we’re going to sell a lot of it, but Apple has been the champion of this now think about it. I’d like to take you back about 30 years ago. Why would people want to buy an Apple computer thirty years ago? There was only one reason think about 30 years ago. Yes, the reason is slightly different today. That’s why I’m bringing you back a few years back? Why would people buy a Macintosh when the main computer? Well, the main competitor at the time was the regular PC at the time they it was very specialized.

I mean there were people, maybe actually yes, designers and people like that who bought Max’s right and a few students. You know what was the main reason. Why? Because it was easier to use, you know what, if you were buying your PC, he didn’t have a degree in computer science. It would be very hard for you to use it right, so Macintosh make it easier for people so Apple use. That claim, in other words, the reason why you would want to buy your Apple computer years and years ago, was easier to use and slowly over time as computers became easier to use Apple to endorse another crime, and why would people buy an iPhone today? There’s still only one reason, but it’s slightly different.

It’s no one here to use because every four years is to use – and you know what it is: it’s cool to use cool yeah. So this again so Apple decided once and for all in the 35 year history. They went from a t1 claim, is it to use and they slowly switch to cool to use over a period of time, but they did that because they know that had been one crime. You know being able to write the book. Why buy enough? On the only one chapter mm-hm and hammering that chapter you know cause when Apple’s 20 years ago was selling a mirror.

It was always you know easy to use by creating that repetition by making it clear as to what is that one chapter in the book title? Why buy an Apple Apple has been extremely extremely successful, so Apple was using some of the concept that we are now explaining from a purely scientific standpoint for for many many years right so, but so basically BAM based on that, then, are you saying that most companies Should really look at uncovering that that one or two reasons, real reasons why a customers should buy from them absolute and it an it, and as you say, it’s not the obvious one in terms of it may not be they the product itself.

It may be something you know totally tangental even to it right absolutely I mean, if you think about it, easy to use and a Macintosh computer. It has nothing to do fast. Delivery has nothing to do with the pizza itself. In other words, unfortunately, if you’re selling your commodity, you will not be able to find what makes you unique in the product itself, because, by definition it’s a commodity, so you’ve got to find that one reason why people want to buy it and it’s going to be Outside of the product, functions and features itself, and all the companies that are successful have destroyed it for a long long time.

That’s excellent advice so before we finish up today, give me a little bit more information about when your book is available about your company about yourself and how people can learn more about you right. So our first book is the valuable you know it was written about. Fifteen years ago, so it’s still available. Our new book titled, the persuasion code, will be available in mid September, is published by ye, and the information is already available on amazon.

Com and what we are is we are the only advertising agency in the world that uses no marketing techniques to diagnose the pain of The customer and ours fine, the true motivation that drives people to buy. Then we are a strategic, consulting firm. We guide the choice of companies on what is that one chapter in your book and we train people on all these concepts and the last thing we do is we have a small, creative arm.

Then, once we have agreed on all this concept, they actually rhyme. So the concepts are, what are the pains in the brain of your customers, and how do you diagnose that then? The second concept is: how do you differentiate your claims numbers? How do you make your solution appear completely unique in the eyes of your customers, even if you’re selling commodity, we call that the claims? The third concept is, how do you demonstrate the game? No, it’s not enough to say I have the best product.

How do you actually prove it and how the volume so pain claim and gain, and the last step is: how do you deliver to the primal brain? In other words, how do you deliver your message to the unconscious of the consumer? Okay, so we packages we package, our services, so that small companies and not company alike, can see benefit in applying a model that is again completely anchored in the science of the human right.

Yeah, it’s fascinating stuff and I’ve had the pleasure of seeing Patrick speak before so I would highly recommend that you, you check out the sales brain and check out Patrick and check out his book and I think you’ll find it extremely fascinating. So listen thanks again, Patrick for joining us. Today. We look forward to to your book and to seen the model in you know its glory coming out in September and then learning more about this fascinating subject.

So thank you for joining us today. My name is John Gould and sales pop online says magazine. Pipeliner CRM will see all for another expert inside interview really soon. Thank you, John. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our You, Tube blog and then comment get involved in the conversation, love to hear what you have to say.


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