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Ultimate Sales with Hal Becker | Sales Experts Insights

My name is John golden from sales pop online sales magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m delighted to be joined from cleveland ohio by hal becker. How you doing how so we I won’t be requesting how to stand up during this interview? We all done seated. So how? If you don’t know how already is a nationally known expert on sales customer service negotiating, he was number one sales person at the age of 22 in a sales force of 11,000 at Xerox Corporation, which wasn’t an easy thing to achieve, which for sure – and he has Mentored and trained a lot of people over the years and he’s written a number of books.

Can I have five minutes of your time. Lip service get what you want, but his latest book is the ultimate sales book so Hal. I wanted to understand so you written all these other books. You know you’ve worked with a lot of people. What was the genesis of the ultimate sales book? Well, let me just preface it whatever sales book you read, there’s nothing new. So it’s just repackaging information. In fact, I tell people if you’re in a book store, you see any my books, don’t buy them by Dale Carnegie how to win friends, influence people written in 1936.

So before I even get to the ultimate sales book, because I laugh because it’s doing supposedly I’ve told my publisher – it’s doing very well in Korea, South Korea, Poland and Japan, but the u.S. Is not doing that. Well, the next book I’m very excited about because it’s not published yet, but that was the best title. I’ve ever come up with ever it’s called elevators features a cramp take the escalator that is even when that book comes out.

There’s nothing new. It’s just repackaging of information, so whatever I give you or my opinions or bit-bit fact, based on all the other books written in the last 70 or 80 years. So this the ultimate sales book West, was an experiment. I thought: okay, I’m an idiot. Most salespeople are idiots felt like myself and we have a TD. We don’t like. We can’t afford an expense report, a little read a book.

I already put this three-page chapters and they have a very humorous quiz right afterwards. You know four four sentences. You know for questions but humorous to see if you retain any of the information, so the a the the goal was to put like a book in a workbook together in a very short two-hour read, and it covers everything in sales. Again, nothing is new, so it comes anything from hot to cold call how to use the phone and how to you know, handle objections.

I think once a closing the customer test so weak ask a good question zone and everything else in between. So what do you when you say: okay, so Dale Carnegie, you know way back when in the thirties – and you say you know nothing has – has really changed but have what are what are some of the things that you see or challenges? That may be a little bit different today than when, when you when, when you started selling well, I’m still selling, because I’m the weekends buddy.

Once I have a neat piece, Motown band and I’m paid, we booked a year advance and I’m a 62 to $ 100. An evening, but I’m the one who’s the sales, not getting all the business and I’m trying to kill myself to make nine dollars an hour, so sales, the sales, the sales, the sales. What what has changed is this technology, so my opinion and when I say a penny, that’s all it is because people can differ.

You know disagree with me everything’s relationships and from the 1910s to the 1990s there were two ways to get an appointment. When was this, when was this, then things changed with the event: the invention of the internet and email, then, when 2007, when the iPhone came out and everything along that social media, just what we’re doing here, everything changed the landscape change, because now we have phone knocking On doors, email, voicemail text, so with changes transactions and how to get the appointment, so you have to be well-versed in typing, you got ta belt, be well-versed in texting, using the phone knocking on doors and what I’m fighting.

So to answer your question specifically now, in my opinion: what’s changed, is we have much shorter attention spans? So less is more. You got to get to the point. You’ve got 7 8, 9 10 seconds and you’ve got to be well-versed in all areas. So many other twenties grew up on technology, so in my age in the 60s grew up through technology, so it’s a whole different, ballgame mom and, along with that, business has become transactional like I’ve never seen before before it was relationships and and who knows where it’s Going to go we’re in the middle of a hurricane, nothing mentioned that the hurricane is sitting right now, but but with Google and Amazon we don’t know.

I totally agree with you and actually, if you can, if you can learn how to knock on a door with your phone while you’re texting on this, but I agree with you, I mean I think we don’t know where we’re going. But the part you mentioned in my relationship, I think and and I’d love to get your opinion on this. I think the idea of relationship was maybe played down a little over the last number of years, because people was always all technology and everything and yeah they were sort of saying.

Oh, you build digital relationships, but I think the relationship aspect is definitely coming back to the fore and people are realizing that that, at the end, the end of the day is still the critical piece 26 year old kid again. As a kid to me, he said well, this is his line. Emails for information, not communication. I’ll, give you the perfect example I’m going to give a plug to this company if you’re a musician or whether you buy a microphone if you’re a speaker whatever it is.

There’s, Sam Ash, you know the stores there’s Chris Tyra center. They have their online presence as well and then there’s a company that most physicians own called Sweetwater. I have no idea what a sweet wire is, but I want to try them once to order something online. They are so good that they call you three or four times a year, just leaving a voicemail, no upselling, hey hi. This is Casey from Sweetwater.

Just wan na stay in touch say hi. I needed to place an order this week for hunting down the right. I’m a nothing thing: the only people I could think of was placing it through them and instead of just going online, I called them mm-hmm because it was just a spam, so wonderful like so I could use technology or use the person and when companies marry the Two now we’re in the perfect world, and I don’t think companies have figured that out yet yeah.

I I think, you’re a hundred percent right because I think we’ve all had the same experiences, but sometimes it feels like companies leverage technology to keep us from ever talking to someone right, yeah I’ll, give you a great example how there was a while back where I Had to update a subscription on the site and the site was going through some changes and to do the they gave you a phone number. When you call the phone number went through the phone tree, I told you to go to the website.

When you went to the website and put in your details, I told you to call the number and you were in just in this insane loop yeah. The first thing I look for is a contact number if they just have the contact form by I move on. I want to have a relationship if I need it down the road and it’s just just no companies couldn’t we could talk about service all day. Long. Do you provide or not you’re you and I we’ve never met until now, you’re.

First of all, you texted me earlier just ping me early. We started this call early you and I for the instant relationship within four seconds and or you would need not form a relationship. That’s life yeah it wheat, but most people don’t even take the chance to do that anymore. I’d have to ask you, I mean because interesting that you know you when you were at Xerox, arrived because Xerox was one of the you know leading companies when it came to sales – and I don’t know if you know I I I run a company called hath.

Wait for a while, which was spin selling, which was near Rackham, who actually did a lot of work with Xerox back in the day right? What are there? Are there some things that you learn too zero? I told those years ago that you have kind of carried through your whole career as real core skills. What’s funny about the way that was with who’s running a company now out of London, is it Tony Hughes? Yes, I bet we would seminar together in Athens, Greece, maybe a year ago or so, and my opinion again is what I when I went to I’m a screw-up.

You know I had a 1:7 acumen high school, I mean that’s a d-plus average, the guy across the hall me. I couldn’t get a job so much comfier to Xerox yeah. How do I sell copiers? I mean what’s the lower on the food chain and I never go into our training. I went whoa and then we went to our training center, which is three weeks 21 days, and then I was so immersed in Venice that I decided to do something.

I’ve never done in my life. I read a book on sales and I got hooked and from that moment on, in these words, I try to eat, tell sales people because the only profession I’ve ever seen it’s made up of amateurs. If you want to be treated like a pro, do something athletes will do anything they cannot to sit on. The bench salespeople are comfortable on the bench, so whether it’s reading a book, whether it’s whatever so to answer your question so from Xerox, we went through.

What’s called PS s1, which is for professional selling skills one because that’s one became PSS, two became PSS. Three became need. Satisfaction, selling became spin selling, it’s all the same, which is question based selling find out about the customer. However, you want to do it to have a conversation and when you leave, do you know more about them or they know more about you. I just gave you eight hours in a sales course.

That’ll close, don’t get fancy just stop talking about yourself. I tell people it’s a date time date. If you don’t want to date, talk about you, the other person’s, going to sit there and go what a loser just walk out finding out about the other person. So do you, and that is something I did a couple of things I just want to dissect from what you said number one there’s the point about what you were saying is that a lot of people come into sales and never have any training right.

It’s one of the fun it’s one of the few jobs you can get where you’re not and yet there’s yet the ones who stand out are the ones who they don’t even wait around for as Eric’s to train them. They they invest in themselves right, but a lot of people don’t so, is that one thing that you would really encourage people to do if they’re, if they haven’t done it already, it’s invest in your own in your own training.

Absolutely and there’s a Jim Collins where the book would be great to every seller, but there’s one line in them that made all the sense get the right. People on the bus and my opinion, the two most important qualities for a salesperson and you can’t train either. Um and there’s no specific order to a number one is a desire. If you don’t have desire you’re not going to be great because it’s a skills, you have to hustle whether its existing customers, whether it’s inside sales, outside sales, new business and number two – and this is the big one.

You can have high empathy where you’re truly putting a customer first and not the sale, can’t train either of those and so most salespeople when they start to study and learn the science of, because I don’t know about you, I am NOT going to a self-taught doctor. I don’t wan na self-taught salesperson, so when I’m around a real pro that truly puts the customer first and they read them, do that Tommy the field or buying something? That’s it they’re going.

This person gets it and I’ve always liked women salespeople over men. I think they’re more empathetic, I think the more genuine, the more she’s here. They know how to multitask better right that people disagree with you, but I ya know, and I think that the the empathy wants it in is an interesting one, because I think a lot of people don’t understand what them. But empathy really means right and some people think it’s because I had this conversation one time with some other people and their argument.

Saying: oh, you know. If you get too empathetic you know, then you might even talk yourself out of a sale or whatever, and I say I said but empathy, it’s not always. Empathy isn’t agreeing with somebody. Empathy is understanding and trying to put yourself in their shoes, and sometimes you may have to deliver hard truths to somebody. You know and that’s what real empathy is right. Why say? Yes, this isn’t right, for you, empathy is, you say, talk yourself out of a sale, great sales people never listen themselves out of a sale.

It should be the opposite: 90 minimum 70 % of the time he shouldn’t be talking since these world even from a long time ago. Think the more they talk, the more endearing they are, the more the customer likes. It is the opposites, the less you talk, the more the customer talked to the more event they like you and you’re. Not there be light if you’re there to do your, I don’t care. If I like my doctor when I go winter, my doctor’s job is just to make me well and if I am well, I got my annual physical and I’m eating 80 Twinkie today, you say: keep eating Twinkies, so I want to be a doctor of blank in Sales, it’s interesting, you say about the listening, because that is the part that I think again it’s a thing that I don’t think a lot of people understand they they’ll understand all day.

You can say you need to ask a good question say: yes, obviously, and then you need to listen to the answers. Yes, obviously, I need to listen to the answers, but there’s listening in this listening right, there’s listening and really you know understanding what they’re saying and processing it and maybe asking clarifying questions and validating what you’re hearing as opposed to listening or scribbling down something, and then Thinking yeah, I got it.

I need to see they’re trained for the whole warehouse, so this is how simple decision I can’t believe, my friends, I can’t I can’t I can’t take money to teach this stuff. Here’s how simple this is and you’re going to laugh at this job. Take a reporter notes in front of them. Take any talks on hopes from Jimmy family Johnny Carson. Their questions are in a cube, truck an index card, a pilot’s as a pre-flight.

A teacher has a lesson: plan attorney, sent notes or briefs. Quarterbacks have their plays on their sleeve. I’m going on this list to all professionals. She has people walking with a blank legal pad or a brochure. So I have to fight what I need to fight. I mean fight to convince them. You have to go on a call with your questions, written out and pull them out in front of you. You look you’re looking down a few times.

What you’re supposed to do at the question you’re going to be asking me if you didn’t come in prepared with questions? What kind of reporter would you be in here, but you’re supposed to be doing and that’s what they’re supposed to be doing and it does the most important things just what you were talking about? First of all, if you don’t ask the questions, you get the answers, but if it’s written down you now truly get to listen to the customer.

Instead of thinking what you’re going to say, next yeah, no and and and we have we have empirical evidence of that, like when I, as I said when I ran house when we did engagements with companies, one of the leading indicators of success were salespeople. Who did proper call planning, says people who wind it like you said, didn’t have as much success and it’s there I mean the evidence. Is there, but yes, how many? If, if you took ten random sales, people off the street – and you said, show me your calendar right, all 10 of them would have customer appointments on them.

Hopefully, prospects customers, how many, how many whoops yeah? How many many of them you reckon, would have 10 or 15 half an hour set aside for planning? Well, because it’s second nature you’re a pro. I would never want a sales call without my questions or even if they’re tattooed to my arm, but I make salespeople when I’m on a sales call. I ask those people to question your own. What’s your goal number two more questions and that’s what he treats just teach the sales managers.

Where are your but you’re not going on a call to your questions written out, I don’t care what bullet points on. I care how you do it. It alleviates you from talking all the time and they still get because again, they’re self taught pick up a book, become a student and learn what and every book says the exact says. Don’t prepare don’t be too genuine. Don’t be honest? Don’t be sincere, it’s just a little more car might have questions and just listen.

There you go, and I think and I think how as we come towards the end, I think the other thing that we’re fighting against now is. Unfortunately, we’ve started to become this very casual shortcut culture and I think sometimes these age-old lessons they just when when people hear them they’re just like yeah and but the reality is, if you want to be successful, put in the work prepare. Well, you probably like myself when you fly quite a bit.

The pilot, probably on that same plane, is doing six to eight takeoff and landing today on the exact same plane and every time they do that they do a physical inspection of the same plane, plot their information and do a pre-flight, because they’re prepared that doctors back. That list of questions on the fiscal they do two three four a day. I don’t see a doctor walking out going forgot the hard thing I still have in my hand the shortcuts take take them on the paperwork.

Don’t do expense report, fine, you won’t get paid, but don’t make a shortcut on sales call. You’ve got an average of an hour and 20 minutes a day. That’s it for an average outside salesperson to be in front of customers and you’re going to take a shortcut. Mm-Hmm, I don’t know you, we all love money, that’s why you’re in sales most of it exactly listen, how this has been great. Listen when does you’re a new book come out.

Oh well, I’m hoping this one takes off in North Korea as well, Korea. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. This come out because you know if the publisher does a great job. Well, it should sell here because of the ATD yeah. No, I think, that’s great but like I said I hope it penetrates North Korea this time and listen before we go. How? How can people find out more about you back crack’s BAC, k, tra XX band and where do you play just around the Cleveland, but you know we’re booked every weekend pretty much excellent yeah.

I got ta check out sometime, listen how this has been great. Thank you very much. My name is John golden says. Pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM see all again soon ash. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved. In the conversation. Love to hear what you have to say:


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#SalesChats Ep. 58: Sales Training Tips & Advice w/ Tim Haller

S. Excellent. My name is John golden from sales pop online sales magazine pipeliner CRM, I’m actually today, not as I’m York, normally I’m in San Diego, I’m actually in lovely Vienna in Austria and my colleague Marta is also somewhere in the city.

I don’t know quite know where, in the city you’re hiding today, Martha also in the end, is keeping you’re keeping your location top secret okay. Well, today, what we’re going to talk about is sales training tips and advice and Tim’s the founder and president of sales gage, which is a sales training company that offers a kind of unique blend of both live training and online or elearning training. You know focused on strategies that immediately drive pipeline and have near-term impact, because I mean, I guess Tim, that’s always one of the things when it comes to any kind of training, but particularly sales training.

Is you know how quickly is this impact? Are we going to see the impact so, from your point of view Tim? What are some of the most important components of a successful sales, training or sales performance improvement initiatives? You know what John there I guess it depends on how you actually measure success. It depends which VP you’re talking about if you’re looking at just, I need a common language for people to be able to work through and have a process.

That’s a methodology, training and there’s a lot of companies that offer that methodology in the and that’s interesting, because, typically working for Hewlett Packard for 20 years, we went through every training known to that you could possibly do, and it turns out that each one of these Trainings had some value to them, but one of the things that really lacked is how do you measure success in sales training, um, that if you want people to fill out paperwork and be able to come out and have a nice, you know I have a nice Blue sheet, or whatever that you’re using, then that’s what you need to be able to buy for sales training our customers are looking at success is how many deals do we get what happened in the training? As you mentioned, what we’re really discovering is finding that eLearning and blended in with a live practice session has been unbelievable for lowering cost and driving.

You know real success. You know. Last week we did a storytelling program for a customer. It was very customized to their products and at the end we did two hundred and ninety some odd calls 219 times. They’ve either left a message or talked to someone and they got 43 actual meetings out of that and at the end of the day, one of the women, this woman Erica sent me a note and said: not only did the class go really well, but she ended Up closing an opportunity, the following day on something that she made a phone call in that day.

So, if you’re looking for success, that’s what I look for is is: did you get something out of it? Um yeah! So that’s it! So let me just focus in for a moment on that so um you mentioned the blend of e-learning and then live training. Is that live training in person is a live training? Is it virtual live training? Can it be either/or, and what do you find is? Is appropriate for maybe self-paced e-learning and what’s appropriate for live, I mean: how do you, how do you get the best of best out of both of those media, so they can be virtual and they can be live? If we talk about the e-learning, what you really need to do is make it to be about an hour long, and these are the concepts that you want people to learn because it used to be that I would come in and do a live session and we’d Spend 2 to 3 hours on doing the lecture, and then we would do the live training.

Well, it turns out now that we can immediately deliver two modules, which is really a 50 % cost savings to the customer. We can do 2 modules in the time it takes us to do what used to take us to do one, because we’ve got that e-learning what’s what’s appropriate. Is that whatever you do has got to be? You know under 90 minutes, basically in order to get people to stick and the real value of the tactical training is that people are practicing it.

They do it right away, and then I guess is that the it’s, the ongoing reinforcement, because one of the things they you know – and I was in the sales training industry for a while – the the biggest obstacle always was. You could come in. Obviously – and you could do a sales performance improvement initiative with the company everybody’s super pumped and enthusiastic about it and then you leave and you know, you’ve trained the managers and you hope that they’re going to, but you have no, you have no way of really impacting It going forward and this the highly motivated ones, will take it and run with it and they probably train themselves anyway, but the rest of them.

It kind of atrophies over time sales isn’t for children. I mean it’s a hard job, John right and to your point, making them practice and showing that it works again. This isn’t about filling out paperwork. This is literally about making sure that they’re working on a live deal that they’re making phone calls that they’re in the middle of a negotiation. That’s the real value in being able to do tactical training it’s what they got to do every day and if they can’t be successful, that’s not anything that a sales training is going to make work.

What is it, what are some of the common issues that you see and that you’re you’re when you’re training that you can help address, such as you know, maybe one of the ones that I used to see a lot in the past? Was you know, sales people? Maybe holding on too long to an opportunity, maybe not qualifying it enough in the early stages and then running into problems later. What are some of the common issues that you come across that you can address? Well, if you break down the process where we start with prospecting, the very first thing I talk about is you know where your leads coming from number one and then number two: how do you line them up so that you can be very efficient with them? So it’s a time management piece that we need to teach people up front.

The second one is, I love the CRM, but not when you’re making calls make the calls and then go back and update your CRM. That really gets you to focus on what you need to do and move forward when you think about deals, what really struggles is that they don’t know how to qualify them. They really struggle with qualifying a deal, and you know everyone thinks that their baby’s really good-looking and cute, but at the end of the day your deals aren’t I mean you think there are great deals, but when someone else looks at them it becomes a problem and You know: we’ve got a couple of ways that we do it to attract.

You know some differentiate differentiation there, but upfront it’s about understanding what I call the critical business issue and that’s a really important one, because we break it down into what we call the critical business, the critical technical and the critical personal – and you know I can address Them if you’d like John on that side, but I’m not sure exactly what you’re looking for no I’m, but it’s it’s good.

Where we’re going with the conversation, I really like it. I think focusing another critical business issue because I do think like okay, so every sales person when they engage with the prospect they they may at least try to have a business conversation and try to get to the business issues. But some people are better at it than others. Why do use? What makes some people better at that, and it is part of it – is that some people don’t really know what how to define what a real business issue is.

Yeah turns out that’s a little of both one that they think they’re having a business issue conversation. The first thing that you describe is the technical issue when they hear the pain point that they’re actually going after, and they hear that issue that they can solve with their product or service. They jump on it both feet in and they’re one or two questions away from qualifying for the critical business issue.

You know when we talk about high value trade table, which is where we get into a from a book call from Chris Voss, never split the difference. Negotiate is if your life depends on it when we get into high value trade tables, it’s really about knowing. How do you capture that information, and one of the very early captures, is what I will refer to as the critical business issue? It’s the people, time and money, and if you stop from the pain point and go back and start engaging, how long does it take you to do this? How many people are involved? If you get two of the three people time and money, you can actually calculate an ROI, and if it’s equal or less than a year, you probably have a good opportunity to close a deal as an example.

We had a customer that swore he had a great deal just on upside-down and it turns out that when we did the critical business issue in calculating the ROI, it turns out that the customer that the client was spending fifteen thousand dollars a year in engineering time. But to solve that or to make them more efficient, they had to spend sixty thousand for the product or service. That’s a four year return on investment, but he swore he had a great deal mm-hmm.

So so what I, what I was finding I am, and I’d like to get your insight on this, as I said, is that it’s not always the fault exclusively of the salesperson right. It’s the the sales managers can get very distracted into late-stage opportunities. Trying to you know, get in there and be the super closer or let me help get this over the line when really, if they focused more on helping to qualify and be that sounding board earlier in the process and we’d have less we’d have better qualified issues.

Maybe are better qualified opportunities, maybe less of them, but with a more higher likelihood of closing well they’re, so focused on three to four times pipeline. They get so into that that they lose sight of the quality versus quantity. So you know one of the studies that we did is that last year there were a hundred deals that we went through with customers and of those hundred ninety six of them had critical technical issues, pain points that they could solve.

Only four of them had business issues that were actually calculated and agreed upon. So this idea that you know they know what they’re doing is one thing. The other piece that you look at is you have two thousand. I call it deal time. It’s two thousand hours a year to make quota roughly little less happy of two thousand half of that goes away to you’re, doing your internal job and everything you need to do for your sales manager and the internal, and you know, life in general gets in the Way – and that means you’ve got a thousand hours well, if you know that 80 percent of the deals that go into your pipeline literally, don’t close, they either lose to competition or no decision.

That means that eight hundred of your remaining thousand hours is gone to deals that you shouldn’t be working on and that’s 200 hours of deal time. That’s all you got to close if you can just get one or two of those deals that your you’re working on to really look at and say: hey, it’s not a good deal. I got ta kill it. Then you have a huge difference in what you can do for deal time, because I mean personally, I get kind of tired of that whole mathematical formula.

You know the we need 5x our pipeline and then life is good and you’re thinking. Well, wouldn’t one and a half of really highly qualified opportunities be better. You know than 5x a load of garbage that it’s funny. I had a guy who worked for me for years, and he kept telling me about this Hamilton standard opportunity was coming in. It was coming in. Finally, I looked at him and I said Larry I don’t get it.

I’ve been forecasting as for you for months, I said it’s not coming in. I said what’s the deal and he said to me: you know Tim when it’s the only deal in your pipeline by definition. It’s a great deal, there’s a well, you know all of a sudden. You know we’re getting to the point where we start teaching people you need these high-value trades and again I recommend this book by Chris Foss. You know never split the difference.

Chris was the FBI hostage negotiator and Chris talked about the fact that you need to know what you’re going to trade before you get into it, and we built this scorecard in this whole idea of high-value trades and its value. What’s the customer asking you for on the one side and on the other side it’s all about time, and so it’s really interesting because when I take guys give me an example of that, because this is fascinating.

Give me an example of some high value, some trades that you might make. Yes, so here’s the one you know one of the things in the software world a lot people want to get to the demo. They don’t know why. But they just know that if I show you something, maybe it’ll stick well, if you start thinking okay, well, I could do a custom demo or I could do a standard demo. Well, those two items right there are increasing in value.

The standard demo will cost you more money than a sales call or a recorded demo mmm. The custom demo takes a lot of time, more people etc. So, all of a sudden that whole idea that I actually am being asked to do a lot by my customer. I have the right them to invest personally, they need to do more for me. So what I teach these guys is hey in order for you to do that. You know, and I’m happy to do, what you’re asking for, if you want to custom demo, I’m happy to do it in order for me to get that done, I’m going to need to think about a high-value trade that I want, and that might be you need To put together a requirement stock that states, you know how you’re going to measure us what you’re doing etc.

The customer has to do that work that all of a sudden becomes this idea that you’re committing to work with them. Only if they’re willing to work on your side and when value looks at time on the right-hand side and that’s you know, value on the left and then time on the right. The critical business issue is like the third item on the list and a lot of the sales managers start saying to me. That seems like a really valuable thing.

It’s it shouldn’t be. It should be more than three points, mm-hmm and I said to him because you’re looking at it in terms of value in that time, I need to know what the return on investment is before the deal gets into the pipeline right. I need to know that we’ve got a good deal and you and the customer agree that we got a great return on investment, so you touch them something that’s really fascinating here and that I wanted to dig a little bit more into.

I think what you said at the beginning. There is in order to do this kind of trading right. The the salesperson has to have a good degree of confidence and respond respect for their own, their own time and the value that they bring right, because if I don’t feel that way, I’m going to say oh yeah I’ll, do a custom demo for ya I’ll paint. It whatever color you want it to be, and you know and I’ll send you chocolates too, but it requires you to have some confidence in yourself and the value you’re bringing for me to say yeah Tim I’ll.

Do that for you, but here’s what I’d like you to do in return? You just got it right on by the way. It’s it’s not a hard concept, but if you don’t plan it upfront right, it doesn’t happen. You need to know what you’re willing to trade and win you know and – and I find it fascinating that salespeople, don’t ask enough questions and, like I said, the critical business, they will actually check off as a that’s something they’ve gotten from the customer.

And yet, when I go back and say what’s the return on investment, how long they they have the technical issue, you can always sell with this issue. You can sell against the pain, but if you really go back to the business impact, because someone in your customer is doing this you’re, not an expert in the finance right, little piece makes a huge difference and they’ve got to be confident enough to do it.

Unfortunately, they don’t want to know the answer, so they don’t they don’t do it they’re. You know. If I get the answer you know it might be the one I know one and I don’t have a deal and then then I might have to find another deal, which means I got ta make a call and I’m going to make a call. I’m petrified of the phone, so there’s another interesting thing in your training nowadays, how much is it evolved over the years, because one thing I I see a lot of right now: is people don’t want a prospect anymore right or they? They would tell you.

Well, you how cold-calling is dead and inbound rules, and you know I sit here and kind of wait for leads to be fed for me, because actually it’s really marketing this job nowadays to fill my pipeline. So what is your what’s your answer with us? Well, there’s two answers one: when people get promoted the first thing they think of is oh, I don’t have to call anymore and great sales reps. Still. I don’t care what you call it cold, calling it doesn’t need to be cold, calling McCoy, but networking and understanding your accounts and seeing what’s going on, you know we just did one, which was something we called slam.

A sales lifecycle account management program and we took a customer through how their client goes to market and then how to interview executives at each step. So they could go back in and create an opportunity. I don’t care what you call it. That’s prospecting well, but right now it’s BTR’s. You hear sales development, reps and business development reps in they are usually people that are fairly inexperienced.

They haven’t quite figured out what they’re doing yet and they’re being asked to go out and call people and generate leads to that point. We actually created, what’s called a BTR kickstart program where we bring together BTR’s. Let them get a couple of different ├«le earnings and then either virtually your live depending upon how they want to do it. Take them through how to get on that phone and tell a great story and handle an objection.

That’s the minimum that needs to happen, and it’s really powerful when you read these young folks get on and do it. We did one a couple of weeks ago where I had a small group, four or five people, and they were just amazing. They were energetic and ready to go and it was fun, and you know it all went on their oldest coldest status leads and I’m working wonders. Well. You did again there’s an interesting thing that you touched on there, that you also you also you know mentioned earlier me here and that storytelling right, because what you just said is you know you got, you teach them how to tell a story, and then you know Overcome the objections, but I mean oh I’m going to think of you know I got a lot of.

I get a lot of unsolicited emails and phone calls and stuff. You know, as we all do, I’m trying to think of the last time. Somebody captivated me with the story. So when you teach storytelling tell me a little bit more about what what do you? What do you teach them to do? The biggest thing that I like to be able to do is you know your marketing. People have done a lot of work for you, go back and read your case studies, because that’s where your story should come from right and it’s pretty simple by the way, as I did with a with a customer, we took their infographics on a couple of their Case studies in an e-book and we immediately were able to build five six seven different stories that you could reach out to their customers on.

They were very customized. You know we teach them to actually start with some level of a pain point you know understand. You know, based on your title, customers like yourself, have been telling us again. You’ve got the confidence you know one of our customers was able to you know. How do I get a few minutes just to talk with you about this or who should I speak to? It’s literally about being able to build a very short story: 20.

Second voicemail – and the biggest thing here is that you need to do the one-to-one executive prospecting, which takes a lot of research in time, but this BDR SDR world. You really got to get him into volume. How many things can I get you know and, like I said when we did it last week, you know in a 90-minute period it was 290 dials and that was 18 people, but that’s pretty powerful when you think about it in 90 minutes I’m going to each One of you we’re doing 30 to 40 calls and you need to do 50 to 100.

Today. It’s all a matter of time management, a little bit of technique in a cabin, a great story and another CAG, you were said everybody was enthusiastic and you know fun. I mean you got a let’s face it. If you’re going to be made in that amount of calls every day, you’ve kind of got to get yourself psyched, you know hyped up and because it’s it’s a tough thing to do so, you might as well may make it fun yeah and recognize that most people, Like yourself, John, are not going to respond, you you need to be there at the right time, doing the right thing and saying the right item that actually hits their pain point that they’re willing to work with you on yeah, and I think, that’s part of the Reason why you see a lot of people give up so easily? It’s you, they make.

You know a few hundred calls or whatever it is, and they say well. This is useless. This doesn’t work but, as you say yes, if you call me on an average day and – and you know put something at me, you know I’m if I even pick up um yeah and if I do I’m probably not going to listen to you. But there are occasions when you know an email is pumped into my email box or somebody’s called up about something that I’ve actually been thinking about and I’m like huh.

Maybe this is worth listening to. So it’s like it’s like one of those things is it’s out there. If you keep going right, it is, you know one of the things I tell people. John and people say all people don’t listen their voicemail. They don’t do this. Look at if people really like what you have to say, they will call you back yeah, I don’t care. If you catch them live they might be. You know, engage you and and have a meaningful conversation as you defined it, but at the end of the day, you really need to be able to get people to do work for you.

If you’re doing all the work and they’re not doing any, you don’t have a deal, you know it’s the funniest thing, as I say, to salespeople. Okay, tell me about the last meeting you were on whether it was on the phone or in person, and one of the things that they talked about is that they did all of these action items, and I said great, would your customer ya know so? Well, they they had nothing right there waiting for us, yes, okay, sales is a is a whole negotiation from the beginning to the end, and I think it was Ian Dunbar who made it.

He was a famous dog trainer and he says: look at whether you’re training, dogs or spouses, it’s exactly the same. It’s a negotiation and that’s what we’re doing trying to train our customers. Yeah absolutely – and I love that and that you brought up that issue about yeah, because that that’s one of the biggest one you see is like somebody comes back from a meeting or gets off the phone or a virtual meeting, and they say I had a fantastic Meeting the prospect really engaged – and you say, what’s the next steps.

Well, you know: we’ve set up a follow-up meeting for next week. That’s fantastic! What are they doing between now next week? No, what do you mean? What is this customer doing? Nothing yeah again the high-value trade table. You know as part of the sales gauge five module where you actually build this trade table, one of the things before you you get off that phone before you schedule. You’ve had to ask them for something it could be as simple as a LinkedIn, but I’ll tell you if you’re sending a quotation to a new prospect without actually scheduling a meeting to review it.

Even it’s only 10 minutes, you’re missing a chance to increase the qualification. Just simple things like that, John and that sticks with people and they love it, and if they can’t give me 10 minutes to actually review a quote, then how serious are they about buying yeah for sure, I’m one oak say as we’re bumping up against the end Of our time here, what I did want to ask you quickly, though, is about sales training becoming part of your daily work practice right, and I do think that this is – and this may be true of all disciplines – I don’t know, but I mean I think, particularly With wit, sales, you know, I don’t think sales people generally, we invest enough in themselves right or take enough response.

I think most people I mean I so people who probably practice their golf swing more than they ever practice their sales skills and, at the end of the day, they’re not on the Ryder Cup team, so golf isn’t putting food on their table. Your sales job is, and yet you’re missing any more time practicing your hobby yeah. You know one thing I talk about and it’s an interview question when I teach sales managers about interviewing and how to do behavioral interviewing one of the things I say is: I want to understand what book you’re reading right now today bring.

What did you do to invest in yourself? It’s a simple one, and if someone came to I, and by the way I don’t care, if it’s a novel or something that you’re reading for fun, I want to know that you’re doing something to invest in yourself. I’ve got a whole list of things that I love, but this and I’m really high on it right now, is book around this. This Chris Voss, the Frank Boettcher book on how I raise myself from failure to success and selling.

There were things and lessons in there that actually get you to understand how to be a better salesperson. You know I’ll talk about one guy, this Don Darren Becker, who was just an amazing customer of mine. He was a global sales manager at JD su many years ago in their Navi AVI, but Don had left. He wanted to go back to being an individual contributor and Don went off, and I talked to him recently and Don had this great thing that he told me he became such a better salesperson because he had empathy for his sales manager.

One thing people need to recognize is that make your manager look good they’ll make it do a lot for you and so Don had his CRM updated. He had his reports and he knew what was required in what the customer needed and or his manager needed, and that made him a better salesperson and he had much more time to sell because it wasn’t constantly answering questions from a sales manager was so profound and He’s an excellent excellent sales rep and he loves it, and you know he was a manager was a global guy and he said I want to be an individual contributor again, there’s a noble thing to that.

I love him. Ya know I think, that’s a great self-awareness. I think there and you know, focusing on what you wanted, what you’re good at as opposed to always feeling that the only way to prove that you’re, improving or or you know, moving on in your career, is to have the term manager, because it’s not the case. So, okay, so as we finish up on our time here Tim, this has been great. It love the conversation.

I always like to ask guess what do you personally Tim do every day to set yourself up for success? What’s something you do you know so I’ll tell you John the biggest thing that I tell everyone on this one. You know if you ever read a professional athlete before a game. They’re stretching they’re doing they’re getting warmed up right, they’re, not just going out cold into the field. So one of the things I tell everyone and myself is grab a couple of your really old cold leads, go back out.

People you haven’t talked to in a year. It’s all in your crm, just you know new a sort and then take and make your first three or four calls of the day. Those are your warmups just make those calls you’ll get a couple of dials in and you’ll get in the habit of doing things and like a professional athlete, you’ll have warmed up because once you get through three or four of them, good things happen, but you need To be able to understand, what are you going to say? Is there a? Is there a great story you can tell, can you you know refer them to some piece of content that you know you’ve done, whether it’s in manufacturing or service or financial services there’s good things and that’s what I like to start out with you know get yourself Pumped up by making a few phone calls in the morning to your old leads and then believe it or not things happen.

You even will resurrect a couple of leads out of there. Just by doing that, ya know this fantastic advice. I think everybody should. It should follow that advice, phenomenal and just before we go to him just tell everybody just a little bit more about you and your company and how they can find out more about you. The easiest thing to do is either send an email to us info at sales, Gage, GA uge dot-com or you can actually go to our website.

Wsas gage comm and in that you’ll see our e-learning platform. I got to tell you what we’ve been told is that the e-learning platform is a very under priced value. We give that away for customers to really get something out of it, and it’s really targeted at that that small company that really needs to do some training, but they can’t fly everyone everywhere. So highly recommend that people check out.

We do and there’s a resource page that has a lot of free stuff that were given away um. So thank you so much John for letting me come and talk with you today. I had a lot a lot of fun. Doing this yeah! Listen! Thank you Tom! That’s Tim say to Tom Tim Tim, hello, there in Boston, my colleague Martha here in Vienna today my name’s John golden says pop online says magazine pipeliner CRM also in Austria, but would be back in the San Diego studio next for the next one.

Next week, again Tim, this is great glad. You could join us glad you. The people could join us on Twitter, Martha anything any any fun stuff from Twitter today, funny stuff, not but very interesting ones Thanks. I look forward to reviewing the Twitter feeds later again. Thanks. Everybody and we’ll see y’all again for a sales chat really soon. Thanks.


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Effective Presentations with Steve Stasczak | Sales Expert Insights

Some new skill sets right. Steve, yes about! You know what are some of the fundamentals of becoming a more persuasive speaker. Who is a spaceman? You don’t exactly be familiar with that three seconds, but whose speech to remember well, obviously the Abraham Lincoln Gettysburg Address is the most famous one right right, so Abraham Lincoln did was. He actually came off of his for know. He told the story.

The casualties in the battlefield and while it would kill the account so while we were fighting in the first place, he told that story to Gettysburg Address and when he told that story after he told the story he prescribed, that was the incidents. That was a story. That’s the I, after that he prescribed an action, he said so if we come together and men offenses put our differences behind us and then the venom that we will become one great nation.

So it sounds simple and it sounds very trite, but that could be coming enough, persuasive speak. What a lot of people do, what they lack is when they’re doing presentations it’s they don’t close up our speech properly. So, for example, you’ve got a title. You’ve got another title: that’s a solution to somebody came in to say, for instance, about a homeowner’s associate. I was in a home, an association for my neighborhood.

It was my turn to speak and, given you know, someone informative, you know presentation, I say well. What I’m going to do today is something that this is a title, my speech, if anyone speeches off anyone how easy this for anyone to build a deck and three weeks or less, you know the force, a commitment that that that now does not exclude women people That first time, people to incarcerate – and you know a lot of people wanting to get their hands at home improvement, so you’re going to you’re going to put off the audience, come up with three major points.

Those three major points me to be pictures to you help me out. One way to other Twitter means when you’re giving your presentation today, three weeks or less I’m going to discuss the materials, the materials that you isn’t, that expensive than thing is as expensive. As you see, and it’s not as labor-intensive and that’s where you golf and get the you know people in their speech with well, okay, well, thank you any any questions and it all gets a little.

I mean the speech so so then, how do you so? This is a good formula for people for people to use, but I think sometimes, even with the first part people struggle with, especially if it’s a it’s a it’s, a it’s a sales presentation or it’s a presentation to a group of people or it’s an online presentation Is people tend to ramble around the beginning of it rather than, as you say, you know, setting it up with a very, very compact and focused idea of what’s going to be talked about? They tend to sort of ramble and kind of go all over the place and try to sort of paint pictures at the beginning, rather than focus so recently, I’m contracting with the company – or I actually don’t do the persuasive speaking myself, some walking walking walking walking a Lot and I’m ferrell regenerative medicine around the country.

So when I go in, I build a little rapport with the folks by you know how familiar they are, how familiar they’ve been with stem cell. You know what was their awareness. I did a little work about myself. Very short, we run from little gels if I’m up in Canada. You know the weather contrast get right into it, like you say, but yeah people tend to do that and I think it’s maybe because of me they might lack a they may be.

They may be unsure of how to approach the audience mm-hmm so a little warm-up in the beginning, and then you want to go like your PowerPoint or what have you today? I’m going to just slide right in there with the river rapport and say you know. I know most of you folks are eager to learn about so-and-so and then BAM go under the title. So how do you help people, as I said it at the beginning? One of the one of the major challenges that we see nowadays is that a lot of presentations are now not done face-to-face right, they’re done virtually they’re.

Dumb luck we’re doing here – and this is – and this is a challenge for people – because sometimes you know – maybe your audience is invisible. They may not have their camera on or whatever, and you still have to give a persuasive presentation, but with zero feedback from the room right so often. So how do you? How do you advise people when they’re approaching virtual presentation? People can somehow you know, acknowledge it, but I’ve been through many trainings where they have to mute.

You know because they don’t want any questions upset the flow of the presentation. What I would do was, I would probably maybe throw some rhetorical questions out there better. Yet I would probably do some audience buy-in, even though I couldn’t hear back from them. Wouldn’t you think this would be putting this witness you know so just to get their participation even if yeah right yeah, because it definitely is a growing growing challenge for people when they’re, not always in front of in front of people.

Another part, is you know, how do you help people simply overcome fear of present right, because even people who have to do it as a job, sometimes it’s the part of their job? They hate their great one-on-one, but if you put them in front of a group of people, they’re like everybody, has an issue. Well, not everybody. People who have fear have issues and you can find out what that issue is a lot of people.

Think – and this is what used to go through my mind, it’s when you’re standing up there almost like naked, like people, can see right through your mind. If you have any other extraneous thoughts or thought about the audience for unconfident feelings, that people can know, people can read those that’s one thing: there’s ten public speaking tips that I think and I’m studying them up down in sideways, but one of them is 90 % Of your nervousness doesn’t show hmm try try to find a friendly face in the audience when we receptive face receptive is key because you don’t know what people that people have on their mind for people get intimidated, overcome the audience right.

So for that receptive face because you don’t know, what’s going through their mind and when you do it’ll make you feel more confident yeah, and I think the other thing too is what I would say to people is. Is the audience wants you to be good? They want you to succeed, they’re, not sitting there, hoping that you crash and burn. So you know you’ve got it. You’ve got an audience who wants you? Nobody wants to read somebody who’s struggling right.

It’s not it’s not a pleasant experience for anybody. So then, how do you help people? Okay? How do you help people bring some more dynamism to the present because that’s the other part, so maybe I’ll get over the fear put you’re, just dull right, you’re just boring and you just you’re just going to it. Monotone slide by slide and everybody’s falling asleep each section. The reason these things work for people are class work and they work for everybody.

I’d never get someone say that they didn’t, but it’s a two-day class. When we do a sweep. We, you learn a session. You practice it with a partner with somebody in the room. Then you perform it, but getting your point. I have a cold in exercise, and so when I do is I haven’t read something really morning matter of fact: I Arabia turn in a minimum tax. Malthus, get through with that. It sounds like I hold a Disney story out loud.

So what you do is you go way to the right? Okay, you break out you break up, because a lot of people may be afraid to be over enthusiastic right mm-hmm. So I go through that. That’s one of the things that I do in the in the class and overcorrection exercise. There’s some other little things than we do, but that’s one of the major things – and I think one of the other things is is: is people have to connect with their own material? You have to believe in what you’re presenting I mean.

I think if you go in and you just think yeah, I don’t really believe in what I’m saying on we believe in this product. I mean it’s really hard to come across or, I believe in a magnet Susie asked about seen. You know about some of the results that I’ve seen and you know some of the things potentials it has so I buy into it negative Susie ethic, which is point of public speaking tip number seven, because the more enthusiastic you want about your product, your audience, will Be pitiful, so what are a couple of things that you would advise somebody to do? Maybe somebody who gives who has to speak, you know regularly or whatever what are some ways they can start to take.

Maybe some inventory of how well they’re doing people have critiques on you know like, for instance, I’m actually doing a one-off for a home speaking coaching for the person. That’s hasn’t ended up the Wells Fargo Championship here in Charlotte, and he when I first came in, I said so tell me what you want help with it. Most people are willing and have been taking their own inventory and they tell you well.

I’ve got too many arms and I’m a little dull. I don’t know how to punch things out. I get nervous this way my hands issues with my hands, yeah and then so high done. Do you help them to overcome these and cuz? Sometimes, let’s face it. Sometimes you can think that you have a problem with something, but when, when somebody from the outside takes a look at – and they say well, that’s not actually what your problem is.

You’ve got your problems over here right. So so, how do you help people? I mean cuz, I could come to you and say: oh, listen, Steve. You know this is my issue, I’m away from my hands too much, but you then read me and you go it’s not your hands, it’s something else I mean. So how do you help people focus in on the right things? You know you can find out what the issue is. You know maybe they’re flailing their hands because somehow someway they’re nervous.

I tell people, I say if you are nervous, use your hands to dispense matter. I mean some people are just going to for abundant energy than others. How did it talk other issues? That’s just sort of an experience, experiential thing that I find out when I’m doing the workshop, like, for instance, this person didn’t tell me most recently that they were there. Pauses were almost like that right there around our homes, okay, so they had a funny way of doing a.

Let me know funny way of doing it home because somebody probably said don’t do homes and they got they still have that nervousness right. It’s it’s! It’s really fascinating, though, when you see that how much people beat themselves up over over things right and how they get, how public speaking can you know become such a bit, you know, can create such you know, fears we said in people because they think that there’s So many components to it become back from to your formula.

Your formula is a pretty straightforward one to follow right. Yeah it takes it takes it really takes ounds simple. Only have people come up there and practice and do it they somehow someway run that action into the benefit, but you’ve got ta. You got ta, stop rhythm, you got ta just and what I do in my public speaking class. Is they work that stories? First comes now or that stories first I get this story done.

I say: okay, now tell me the action, the action you want, people to take and the benefit they’re going to receive from doing it boom. I say: go out there and tell your story and then just simply at the end of its thing, this is the action I want you to take. This is a benefit like your parents, hmm when you’re kids, they just say, don’t be the trigger, don’t fix this or don’t do the chore? Well, you did, they never told you why somebody would receive from doing if you didn’t, maybe fifty percent of the time you would you know – probably probably not but yeah, but at least you know at least you’d think about it.

So that’s it! That’s it. That’s interesting. It is, and I think what you’re hitting on here is that difference between the action you want to take in the benefit, that’s very easy to confuse those or conflate them right. So in in the last few minutes we have Steve what else? What other quick piece of advice would you give to people to improve their to improve their speaking and then tell us a little bit more about yourself and how people can learn more about you and you know, come to some of your classes? Well, here’s the thing! So a lot of people, you know they say well, I don’t have any problems with public speaking at a girl one time one of my classes say yeah.

I was in the debate team and everything showing up for the major of her presentation. She just folded. Mm-Hmm one thing you need to be modest and true yourself seriously: mm-hmm, sometimes the quietest, people, the people on the lowest rung of the ladder, usually turn out to be the best speakers in the class say this. I’ve seen a lot of people speed. So one thing never put your hands in front of you because you’re creating a barrier to the audience.

Oh, I see a lot of people. I see me doing that infomercials on TV and things or what have you Insurance commercials? They do the finger thing or what you know. The other thing is I’ve. Seen a lot of speakers do that they paced back and forth in front. They didn’t prove you know, and people think you know that you’re not Tony Robbins, okay, but you’re, not the eye clinic where they’re going to find you everywhere when you do that people are twisting their neck back and forth and they start not to get it all.

Because you’re going all over the place, that’s one of my pet peeves, I would suggest not to do the other thing too, is a lot of people think that if they memorize a presentation and try to restate it word for word they’re going to make, they have A perfect presentation – and that’s not – I need to be tempted – everybody’s tempted to do that and when you do what happens is you’re going to lose your spot you’re, inevitably going to lose your spot you’re going to have the back for a? Can it’s going to bite you it’s going to bind your speech online so that that’s pretty important! You know if you have to keep no cards, that’s fine! But typically, when you’re doing a presentation, you’re going to have those three bullet points, something yep title out there.

So you don’t mind, we’ll remember, looks behind those points. You’ll have the story behind them. So, yes, I said: yeah yeah, it’s Riley, hopefully there’s nothing worse than you know, bringing up your third bullet point and then going huh, I’m not magic on any base theories and you can improve somebody’s mind seriously a good percentage of doing these in the class. It’s really interesting because people think in pictures, so how this thing is oriented, but can I talk about my classes? Yes, please, to tell us a little bit more about yourself in your chances.

Samsung Toshiba places like that, and I do I guess what you want to call home speaking class where I advertise and then I can do in different cities, mostly around here, northern South Carolina and Virginia and Georgia, and things like that DC. There are two day classes and we cover everything under the Sun. You make one investment. I mean seriously that two-day class should last you the rest of your life mm-hmm because, like I said, you’ll learn a spot.

You’ll learn a portion, a section, then you practice it and then you perform by here for two days. If you don’t know it then there’s something wrong because you’re a birthday well next thing, but listen them thanks Steve. This is Steve’s stage Zack. My name is John golden pipeliner CRM and says pop online sales magazine spin grades been fun talking with you and look forward to another expert interviews really soon.


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Importance of a Positive Mindset in Sales | Ryan Lowe

My name is John Gollum from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I am joined by America’s positive attitude: coach, Ryan, Lowe from New Orleans, Louisiana, hey Dean, Ryan, yeah, excellent, Ryan’s, a motivational speaker, sales, trainer consultant and author who’s. His passion is working with companies and team members to inspire them to create a positive culture and mindset to achieve excellence, and today we’re going to talk about the importance of a positive mindset in sales.

So Ryan, we’re now in August. Right and a lot of salespeople are on a calendar year and you know maybe they’re looking at their quota now and they’re going. What looked like an achievable quota back in January is now looking a bit daunting to them, and maybe all these self-doubts and-and-and negative thoughts are creeping in. So let’s start with people like that, what advice would you give to somebody who’s? Maybe losing hope that they’re going to achieve their quota this year, one of the things that I would suggest is going back and looking at their daily habits.

What are they doing on a daily basis? Are they doing the same thing that they were doing at the beginning of the year and if they are they’re going to get the same exact results so really working out what they do on a daily basis, maybe have to shift their goals just a little bit? I know you can’t shift the quota, but you can say I whether my daily goals, my weekly goals, my monthly goals. You know if I’m only hitting $ 10 a day, I’m going to have to bump it up to 20.

If I’m a you know, if I’m on five appointments a week, I really need to be going on ten appointments a week to hit my numbers. So it’s kind of like at this point. You got to really bump up what you’re doing on a daily basis right and so, and so a lot of it is, is getting back to best practices right and getting back and figure out if you’re doing, because, let’s face it, sometimes when things aren’t going well, You kind of convince yourself you’re doing everything you can, but you realize, if you do what you just talked about, you may realize that maybe you’re not putting their best foot forward.

Yeah, that’s a lot of times. You just got to go back to the basics. You know, are you using your time correct? Are you really hitting the right prospects? Are you just hitting doors just to hit doors? Are you talking to the right decision makers? Are you asking for the business? Are you getting in front of the people that you need to be in front of, but you’re not comfortable or you don’t know how most sales people that, as I call them really don’t know how to ask for the business so they’re full of fear or they They have the mindset that this person can’t afford their product, so they’re not going to really ask and a lot of times if they would just have the confidence and build that confidence that they, when they go into a closing meeting or a network or just any Type of meeting with their client that they’re going to be successful at it.

So what are some of the ways that says people just overall can start to build a better sense of self confidence, because I I agree with you a lot of the times. Let’s face it, you mean salespeople, have been bombarded with negative stereotypes and and all of that – and they tend to often think well all the power lies in the hands of the buyer. So what are some of the ways that they can start to build self-confidence and maybe look at themselves a little differently? One of the things I always doing all my trainings is.

I have all my clients and people that I coach. I have them. You know ten things and I’ve learned this from Brian Tracy. I travel the land doing sales years. So our goal shutting time management prospecting, identifying needs, presentation, skills, closing techniques, how to handle objections, positive attitude and then self development. I always have them pick out their two weakest areas out of those ten.

That’s what you need to work on if you that you’re great at presenting, but you can’t close work on your closing and what I’d say, is: go online, find someone that is great at teaching closing techniques, you could probably go on YouTube. I know that you can buy Google closing techniques, try a couple of them um if you might be great at presenting, but your time management skills might be not where you need them to be, because you’re not getting in front of a knight enough people to present Some books: how to be procrastination by Brian Tracy, there’s a lot of great information out there that once you find your two weakest areas, you can google or go find books or find articles, and that’s why I’d say to start.

So that’s that’s an interesting point because sometimes when, when things aren’t going well people just assume it’s just it’s everything right when, as you say, it could be particular skills or particular areas of the sales process that they’re that they’re falling down on, and I guess this Is an area where sales managers could really come into play if they’re, if they’re good at observing and coaching their people? Well, that’s when I when I, when I trained sales leadership, I tell them to look for those those weakest areas and it’s not a bad thing.

We all have sure, and once you know that and once you know the areas that they need assistance with. That’s some of the things that you can hone in on and then go back to some of the other areas that they’re good at and keep working on. Those so it’s always an evolving process and you just got to stay on top of it daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly and yearly. But as you keep, you know, just getting better and better and better at what you do.

But it’s all about going back and kind of you know coaching yourself, all right man I mean when I first got in sales. I made a lot of friends and sales, but I couldn’t close a thing, but once I learned some closing techniques I would go, and I know that sounds kind of silly you’re staying in front of a mirror. Go. Do it to your wife, your husband, whatever partner and say look, you know you can you listening to this? How does this sound? You know what that works yeah, and I think that I think you right.

You raise a great point too, because sometimes we’re not that we’re not that good at at number one analyzing ourselves and, and then number two is going back and practicing the basics and as you say, I mean it’s something you can do at home. It’s I mean great sports people, I mean somebody told me a story recently about you, know Kobe Bryant, who apparently used to hit the hit the gym at 5:00 a.M.

In the morning and then go to the basketball court and he wasn’t practicing trick shots or fancy Shots he was apparently doing the most basic shot over and over again for hours, because that was the basis of everything and I think there’s a good lesson for all of us. Is that sometimes going back and examining? Oh, you know just going back and making sure you’ve got all the bases covered and finding out maybe the one you’re falling down on and practicing yeah.

My my famous quotes, our famous quote that I’ve heard is be extraordinary and ordinary things do I mean, even here in New Orleans drew brees. I’ve heard stories of him. You know, after winning a game going he’s got his wide receivers out there and they’re just flowing normal passes, cut routes, things of that nature, because those are the little bitty things that you’ve got to get. You know it’s kind of like working out.

You’ve got to have that muscle memory, even when you know your minds being negative and you’ve got all these negative thoughts in you. You know it’s the end of the month, all that kind of stuff. You got a kick in the muscle memory and that’s what I’ll get you yeah get you through, and so what are some of the things that you can do immediately prior? Because you can do all this prep work and then you can maybe come up and you have a sales call, maybe have a meeting with somebody.

Maybe you have an online meeting with them or a phone call or whatever, and a lot of people can defeat themselves in the moments before the meeting, because they just you know, despite all the prep work, they’ve done, all the doubts come back. So what are some of the things you can do to make sure that you go into an engagement with the best mindset possible. I always tell my clients take 10 minutes before you walk in close your eyes sit down for a moment.

It’s kind of like back to sports, yeah, Jack Nicklaus would would imagine and in his mind him making the final putt at the Masters it’s kind of, like you know, Kobe Bryant or some of these other ones they talk about. You know there are always picturing and imagining them winning the game or making the final shot. It’s the same exact thing say: ten minutes before you go in breathe if you’re sitting in your car before you get on a conference, call or whatever and go over your notes and have the attitude that you’re walking in with a great mindset that you are going To be the best answer, the questions that you need need to do overcome their questions and also to getting the sales person mindset.

Out of your mind and saying I’m going in as a consultant and I’m to fix the problems that this my client has, because that’s what it is, a dot work. First of all, like doctors, if you find the problem, everybody buys off of problems. It’s no problem. Once you identify that that that’s half the battle right there and if you can go into a sales or a closing meeting and explain how your feature you know, I use the ofab feature.

Application benefit how this picture works for you, how it applies, how you’re going to be successful with it and here’s the benefit. I really think keeping it simple is the best way to go. Yeah. No, absolutely, and I think, as you say, I mean going in there. Thinking that you’re you’re here to solve some problems, you’re actually you’re writing in to rescue the situation, so that should give you some confidence, yeah, yeah and absolutely so.

What are some other ways that that you can continue to keep a positive mindset, say if you’re in you go in great positive attitude, everything’s going well and then maybe something comes up in the meeting that throws you and I’ve noticed that this is one thing that Happens to a lot of people, you know when they get knocked off their rhythm or their game. Suddenly, as you said, they lose total confidence.

What are some ways of getting yourself back on track? I think about past clients. I think about even wait. Am I speaking business? I get invited to speak at these large conferences and at first that negative mindset comes in oh my gosh, and then I go back and work and think about all the big conferences. I’ve spoken at and say you know what I can do this. You know what it’s going to happen. It’s I’m going to make it great whatever I can do and you got to remember too we all get knocked down.

I mean everybody. I mean I probably knocked down more than you know that I could imagine, and it’s just thinking I know that’s a whole cliche you’ll get back up, but if you think about you’ve gotten back up before you can get back up again and most sales people that Are successful that are great at what they do? They know that they can’t win every single time. You’ve got to go in the mindset of clients.

Just can’t see it. Some clients don’t understand some clients, but if you walk in and leave everything you got at the door and you know you did your best and move on and go to your next client yeah and I think that’s a really important point that you brought up. There is to look at your past track record because you didn’t suddenly become terrible overnight right I mean you, didn’t suddenly just forget everything and not able to do it anymore, and you have successes to look back on and I think those are.

Those are really important that you that you bring them by back into your mind and you go no. I mean I can solve problems here. Maybe I can solve this person’s problem in the end. Maybe we’re not compatible. You know the solution or whatever, but I have been successful, not be successful again and one of the other things I always share with people as well. Not I do this, this kind of hit me I’m a big college football and if I love sports, the things I’m warming to is when I’ve gone through a bad season.

It’s just like sports, my favorite teams. They have a bad season. What do they do? They back the next year win the national championship where they go to the playoffs life’s the same way. You might have a quarter that gosh, don’t matter who you call they don’t answer the phone. You can’t sell anything. Nobody wants to talk to you go to the next quarter. You know what forget back and go in that you.

This is going to be the best quarter and that’s how you’ve got to just tell you got ta have instant instant. You know you forget, you got ta, forget things quickly, it’s that’s what I call it. You’ve got to be able to move on it’s the hardest thing, but at the same time, learn from it and move on and believe me it’s it’s not easy as it sounds, but it does work yeah and I think the important thing in that and it’s a Great point the important thing, and that is that, if you can look and say I did everything I possibly could during that quarter – oh yeah, it didn’t work.

Okay, it’s funny. I didn’t, but I put the effort in now. If I continue to work hard, I put the effort in next quarter, I’m going to have a go quarter, and also you learned what not to do yeah I had bad months a bad quarter or a bad year or whatever it may be. Really not. What was I doing at that time that I, even though I did everything that I thought I could do best? What was I doing that I could take out of that equation? Yeah and it’s funny, because even some of the best people right who are in many ways, a lot of us at times are unconsciously competent right, we’re good at what we do, but we couldn’t actually tell you what it is, and sometimes you have to take.

You know what it is, how we do. Sometimes you got to take a step back and say: look at your, as you said, look at your past successes, but really analyze what made it successful as opposed to just go. Oh well, I was successful, could actually look at it because I don’t think people take enough time out actually to look at what they do that actually leads to success. Yeah if you can take a day, whatever go sit somewhere to library whatever and really map out.

You know what you do great, what some areas that you need to work on. You know you need coaching. Do you need to just go online and read some articles grab some books grab some audio books. I always tell people you really want to get back into a positive mindset. Turn your car, like Brian Tracy, says University on wheels. I learned that years and years and years ago and now with the iPhone and all that it’s so much easier to listen to a YouTube or listen to an audiobook or something and the great thing about that is you’re, going to pick up an idea.

And that idea is going to flourish and that’s going to help you get through the next thing, so it might be. A closing technique might be a time. Management might be a networking technique, whatever it may be. Something’s going to refuel you and that’ll keep you inspired to keep going yeah and I think that’s I don’t. I think, that’s a great point, because there is a temptation when, when things are tough to just go, I just need to get away from all of this.

When, in fact, as you say, what you need to do is actually sit down and really analyze and then feed your mind, I mean a lot of. It is about feeding your mind with with good insights with positive insights yeah, and I tell people also to don’t. Do it just during the negative times, do it through the great times B, habit of getting up early in the morning and reading or at lunch, bringing a book or if you know you got a thirty minute job to our client, be sure you know you’re on Your book set whatever it may be because that’ll keep the momentum going because you never want to fall off the momentum, and then you got back up again.

That’s the hardest thing to do. I mean we go through the year. We take two or three weeks off. You know for Christmas and then all the sudden January first hits and we’re back up and over again, so if you’ve been doing that Christmas time, that’s when they should be claiming the not they wanted January. You know day, one of December start planning you year your goals, what you’re going to have, and in figure out all the different things that you know they’re going to help you be successful.

Absolutely this is we’re bumping up against the end of our time Ryan, but before we go I’d like you to tell people a little bit more about yourself, what you do, your books etc sure you know, as most of you know, my name is Ryan Lowe. I’ve been named by peers and clients by as America’s positive attitude coach, I go around the country speaking at large conferences, sales meeting sales, kickoff meetings.

I also come into organizations and coach, their leadership, sales leadership and their sales teams, and now even their customer service teams, because it’s all about my message – positive productivity through positivity you’ve, got to stay positive. You know through all of these different different sets, and so it’s a big circle, a big area that I cover, but also it’s been really great, so you can check out my book entitled get off your attitude.

I also have another book called glia isms. It’s it’s inspirational quotes and then everything is at either Jeff your attitude, calm or Ryan Sheila, calm, excellent, yeah, no excellent, listen, Ryan! This has been great and I hope, everybody’s taken away some great pointers and get off your attitude get positive you’ve still, if you’re on a calendar year, you’ve still got plenty of time. Just go back.

You look at what you’re doing figure out where maybe you’re falling down start practicing the basics again and and just belief, you’ve done it before you can do it again right. Absolutely all right! Listen thanks! Ryan! My name is John golden says. Pop online says magazine pipeline of CMC offer another expert interview really soon. Thank you.


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How To Improve Your Sales Process And Increase Business with Karyn Buxman

My name is John golden from sales, Papa online sales magazine and pipeliner CRM joining you from lovely San, Diego as usual, and today I’m joined by Karen Botsman, who is actually also in San Diego down the road. How you doing Karen? Oh man, I’m telling you what beautiful day awesome San, Diego and so ken is an international speaker, success, author and neuro humorist.

This is, I love this living at the intersection of the brain and humor. So you live downtown San Diego. She also lives at the intersection of brain, so Karen’s a pioneer of the fire in the field of applied humor. You actually did a master’s thesis in graduate school, and now you work in partnership with neuroscientists, and then you help organizations and people to peak performance to art, the art and science of yeah humor.

So what we want to talk about is okay, so I talk with lots of people about strategic, their strategic that right never about strategic humor to grow your sales soak all right. Let’s go what is strategic humor, its humor, that is used intentionally for a desired outcome, and the insight here is that people think that the purpose of humor is entertainment and that’s true, but that’s only one of the three purposes.

The two other purposes are influence and well-being and for people who are high performers in sales, many of them have a sense of humor and they can be funny and they even recognize that it can be helpful, but they’ve not thought about how they can implement it. Intentionally and consistently – and that’s what we talk about when we talk about strategic humor and high performance humor, because let’s face it, I mean a lot of times when, when people engage with someone, they sometimes use humor as a as defense mechanism as an I as an Icebreaker or, and sometimes you, kids, sometimes it works, and sometimes it’s awkward or whatever, but I don’t think very many people approach it in a strategic fashion.

Right right, you know, and when I’m interviewing people I have a book coming out, this fall as you and I had talked about that Forbes books and I have interviewed many many high performers, particularly in sales, and they are the ones who have thought about this process And before they show up they they are thinking about. You know, how can I use different kinds of tools so that I can have that other person leaning in and this is where I got ta tell you.

This is where I get out on the combination of humor in the brain. This is something that is really very cutting edge and, through the work of people like David Rock, who wrote a great book, called your brain at work and he’s the founder of the neural Leadership Institute. What we know is that when the brain goes into a threat state – in other words, that’s kind of the person leaning away its then putting up their guard, putting up resistance when they’re in a threat state.

They are not hearing you to the degree that you want to be heard, they’re not connecting with you. They may not even like you. They’ve got other kinds of things going on in their mind, and so that really puts up a barrier to the sales process. What can you do to help that brain state become a toward state? Because when, in that, when it’s in an away state now we have adrenaline going up, ignore epinephrine, going up and dopamine and oxytocin going down? And all of these other things looks like this cascade of neurotransmitters that are working against you, but the cool thing about humor is that we now know scientifically that when somebody is engaged in humor and it’s a positive kind of humor, not an aggressive humor, but now We are seeing an increase in dopamine, a decrease in epinephrine and norepinephrine, and an increase in oxytocin, which is that bonding hormone, and so now you have the other person.

You know their brain is leaning in towards you and it makes you more likeable. I know that you know who listening to this is not red rubber child. He needs both influence and persuasion, number one thing being likability. You know people would rather do business with all things being equal with somebody that they like or somebody that they perceive it’s fun and positive. And again, this is one of the many things that human can do for you when you think about using it intentionally yeah, and I think it was a couple of things you touched on there.

I think it’s really fascinating, for people is okay and, as you said, you know, there’s a lot of stuff going on when you’re trying to communicate to somebody, and nowadays it’s even more so because, as I as I say, ad nauseam now we’re not the busiest we’ve Ever been with the most distracted, we’ve ever been just decided to replace distracted with busy to pretend it’s been, but so people are just so distracted right and there’s so much going on that.

It’s really hard to cut through that noise. But, as you say, one of the ways you can do that I mean you’ve obviously taught this for a long time and studied it and help people with it. How often do you see that kind of clutter fall away when somebody suddenly goes? Oh, that’s quite funny. Actually and then suddenly they’re, you know suddenly all of this other stuff that has gone on the brain has been cast aside because they’ve, because it is such a, I don’t know, I was going to say a primal, but in a good way kind of connection.

Yes and again, you know this is all at this unconscious level. Oh good. We know that logic tells emotion cells. But how do you tap into that emotion? You know you can scare the person to death right, remember or you know, try to bully them or whatever that may be. You know, but humor is one of those shortcuts to the emotional process, and so you are tapping into the emotions and and again increasing that resistance and, at the same time improving your your capacity in terms of brain capacity, and so it does tend to have that.

Other stuff, that you know when you say the term fall away. I think, in terms of like that resistance, falling light and as long as the humor is on target and is used appropriately, then you’re going to see that fall away. The issue is that some people – nah I’m going to say most people, don’t really understand all the things that come into play to make humor really work for you right really work, it gets it.

You know it does get a little complex and I’m throwing a lot of things out here because I was going to. I was going to ask her about that right. So, okay, so we know it works when it works right, but we also know that not everybody is number one, naturally funny or witty or whatever, and sometimes people you know try to be funny, but they just come off as awkward or it’s inappropriate at the moment Or it’s basically not funny, which then makes the situation more awkward, because then you have to do that kind of which you don’t could make.

You feel more defensive because you’re just thinking now I just I just showed that was funny. So how do you? How do you advise people on how only on the type of humor how to do it? How do you do it if you’re, not if this isn’t something that you naturally go to? Well, you know there are several push backs, whether those are conscious or unconscious, and one of them is what, if I’m not funny, you know, and when people say that to me my response is great, because the pressure is off what I have discovered over years and Years of research is that high performers understand they don’t have to be funny, they need to see funny, they don’t have to be the initiator, they need to be the appreciator and so take the pressure off.

For one thing you know and there’s there’s many ways that you can leverage humor without ever having to tell a joke yourself. I don’t advise telling jokes unless you are really really good yeah. So, let’s explore that because, as you say, I think it’s just taking the pressure off anybody who’s. Reading this who’s thinking. Oh my goodness, I have to turn into a stand-up comedian. I have to come right, jokes, the night before and arrive first into the room and capture.

So what are some of those ways? As you said, you can see funny or you can highlight something or you can just bring that up without you actually being the initiator. Yes, um anecdotes stories pulling stories from another person. These are ways that I really like, because what is most personal is most universal and when you can start finding stories, I coach a lot of high performers and, and one of the things that I became aware of was you know a lot of them are saying.

Oh, you know I need to be funnier and teach me how to be funny or I want to be funny. Just you know improv whenever and I said you know I can make you funny. I can. I can write you a funny script, but if you, if you don’t know when to use it or where that opening is and how to use it appropriately, you know again awkward. But, but you know, one of the great things about sales is so much of that. It’s more about listening and asking the right questions and, as you’re asking these questions to really have that filter on and again this is a brain process, your reticular activating system, when you have that filter to be listening for these little openings of any kind of a Funny comment that they make.

That’s your cue. How can you leverage that? How can you build off of that another piece of advice that I was coaching a gentleman on the other day in sales because he’s not a funny person, but he showed me a sales presentation that he did and he was talking about something any threw out. A comment and somebody from the audience threw him a line that made everybody laugh right. Okay, this is golden for you.

You know it’s like call, lather, rinse, repeat, okay. That was a funny light next time. You do this presentation, because you do this presentation a lot. Now you get to borrow that person and line and use it for yourself, and you can either refer to the other person or, for God’s sake, just steal. It use it. It’s like to call the creative appropriation. You know, that’s that’s one. It’s really a tool about listening and and leveraging.

You know, there’s there’s um in terms of visuals in your presentations. You know if you’re you know, I don’t know using PowerPoint or something there’s all kinds of visuals that you can use people who keep. You know things of interest on their desk. You know it might be a picture of something that’s interesting or kind of funny and to have one or two things that you can work into a conversation. This is what I called planned spontaneity run.

So it’s a line that you can use, you know and I’ll just give you one quick one. So it’s like. Oh I’m meeting somebody and we’re sitting down and we’re going to have a discussion to see if we’re a good fit and I’ll ask how they are and they’ll say. How are you and my my response? Is you know if I weren’t even there I’d be you, you know it kind of takes them back, but they start to chuckle. I know that brain-wise, the resistance just came down a little bit and so leveraging that you know different kinds of humor without you ever having to be funny.

It is really easy once you get into it yeah, and I like that concept too, that you said about when you’re having conversations you know with a prospect or a customer or whatever and you’re listening, and especially because when somebody starts to tell you about the issues They were having or they try to project last year. Didn’t it didn’t work? Well, you know there’s some more stories there and you know that, probably from this looking at it from this distance now, there’s probably ones that they’ll be on.

You wouldn’t believe what they did at Manor and there’s suddenly this humor in that and you you’ve made that person tell the funny story right. Yes and here’s an interesting thing that again this this wasn’t my own initial insight. I learned this for my son. It’s amazing that we can learn. Our children are best teachers he actually studied with second city yeah, and so and he was a starving artist.

I go to visit him in Chicago and you know I opened the refrigerator in his apartment and there is bread and ranch dressing. Yeah food is hard to improv him. That’s a tough one to improv eating bran, stressing sandwiches, so I take him out to eat. While he’s golfing down food, I said you know just in case this. You know ii said he thing doesn’t work out, you know. Is there a way that you’re going to be able to apply this in your life in other ways, and he was supporting himself by being a waiter at the time, and he said you know mom I’ve always gotten better tips than my counterparts, because I’m funny he Said when I started improv, he said you know.

One of the rules of improv is that you never put the focus on yourself. You never try to be the funniest one you’re. Only you know by everybody trying to make the rest of the team look funny. It raises you know almost in the time, and he said so. I started looking at my tables as part of my troupe and what I realized was in every table. There was somebody who thought they were funny too said mom. When I’m funny.

I get really good tips, but when I can make them look funnier than me, I get amazing tip that is really really cool because it really does play into it played it plays into that kind of idea of. You know the rule of communications that people believe conclusions they come to themselves over anything. You can tell them right, so your job is to help them to come to that conclusion. So, in your son’s case, his job is just to convince them yeah.

You are a really really funny person and who doesn’t like to feel like that exact. I mean that is like one of the ultimate compliments to tell somebody that they’re funny, quite frankly whether you’re, looking for a leader or a lover, one of the top three things people looking for is sense of humor. You know make me laugh, and so, even if they’re not that funny to just go, oh my gosh, you are funny they’re going to be bigger.

Now you put the brain in a really torn state there and then they’re going to love this conversation with you, and I think part of also. I think why this is a kind of a timely message as well. In many ways is, I think it’s facing mean we live in their number one. We live in a pretty angry messed-up world today, and people seem to love doing in the opposite of laughter. This idea of recreational hangar, where people just angry all the time I appropriated that from someone, because that’s exactly what I was, but I’ve been thinking so people are, you know case that and and there’s all these pressures at work and people are angry outside of work And all the stuff going on the bringing in little lightening things up a little.

I mean this is such a perfect time to introduce that, because I say like today: there’s a couple of things being polite will make you stand out, which is an unfortunate thing, but it’s true. It’s unfortunate state of the world I think being lighter and you know, and and creating the environment for a nice happy engagement with someone is going to stand that. So I think the timing of this is is perfect.

Yes and humor. Like you said earlier, it could be a tool or it can be a weapon, and you know, over the past few years we’ve really seen it weaponized. But if you are in a position in sales you’re not trying to weaponize here – and you know – you want to be building these relationships and that’s one of the beautiful things about humor is that it could very quickly bond you with other people and and to you Know so so why not use it and why not use it intentionally and consistently, because the more you do that again, not only are you rewiring your brain, but you’re definitely going to see a difference whether you’re doing presentations, whether you’re, you know wherever you are in The sales process that can, I put humor in my contracts, my closing contracts.

You know it’s just like you know just to see how how closely they’re reading you know, but when people send the contract back, you know they say you know. Oh, you know great contract. It’s all signed, I don’t know if I can really supply the cabana boy to Sergei it’s in your room, but we got everything else covered so so take advantage of that ya know, and I think people are acting. People would be very, very open to it because they’re not getting enough enough kind of just you know warm laughter.

One thing before we finish, though, because I’m you know I was reading and reading some of your stuff, and I and you were talking about doing that – big presentation in Asia. Right, everybody told you, don’t don’t tell any jokes, it’s your bomb and you did and it all worked out, but from how is it? How can people prepare themselves if they have? You know for being careful about humor across cultures and all of that kind of stuff is there? Is there a kind of a safe zone that you could pretty much plays everywhere, or do you have to really figure out the culture um? You know it really does help to know the culture, and I didn’t tell him any jokes.

What I did and I took out all the wordplay. They took out cultural references and I loaded the presentation with funny personal stories, because again, what is most personal, his most universal and – and you know a lot of people preparing me for this – said: don’t panic when nobody laughs and so I’m ready to talk to a Vacuum, but these people I mean I’ve, got pictures of them wiping their eyes, so either they really connected with those personal stories or the translator was going laugh hard.

Now she say something funny, and so what I get from it, though, is because people are connecting, and I think I shared with you that even three days later, a gentleman came up to me and tapped me on the shoulder and said you know: fun eating money Which is not a name, you know that’s what the title that’s coming up, because it was so memorable to them that have made such an impact. You know one of the things that if your listeners and viewers are more interested in this I’ll, give you the link where they can download a sample of what’s coming out in the book.

This fall because I do identify seven important building blocks and again, when you understand these grasp these and apply these you’re going to crush it, but when you miss one and and miss it, you know big time. You know, for instance, one of the very first building block is bond. It’s that relationship between the other person, and so many people assume they have a better relationship than what they really do.

Like, oh man, you know he he likes the Rams. I, like the Rams stuff love this joke uh. You know this political party thing and it’s like blows up in their face. So you know: if people go to humor for me calm, they can download a simple sample of the upcoming book. That’s coming out with forms. This fall yeah and I think that’s it and I and I think that’s a great one to end on just to underline that that one, though about assuming too much because that’s what I advise people nowadays is you’re not going to you’re not going to get penalized For being too polite, you’re not going to even get penalized for being too formal, because you know something and people are getting sick of this over-over familiarity from the gecko.

Yes, i-i’ve never met. I’ve never met you. I’ve never written to you before, but I’m going to go, hey, hey and all this, and it’s just like come on. You know. Let me taste give me at least. Let me have give me the courtesy of giving you permission to do that. Yes, yes, you are spot-on with that one. So before we go tell us a little bit more about the book when it’s released, I presume it’ll be available and all the all the usual blogs and we’ll have it in ioans description, you’ll be able to yeah.

Thank you, I am so excited because this really is cutting-edge material. I’ve been a pioneer in the field of applied humour for the past 30 years, and this content is content that has been pulled together just in the last 15 months and very heavy emphasis on how you can use humor strategically for influence. The title is actually funny means money, strategic humor for influence and world domination and it’ll be coming out.

This fall and again it did we’re we’re putting in the tools the processes assessments. You know I studied humor for 30 years so that you don’t have to, and I think it was EB White said that humor can be detected as a fraud can, but the thing dies in the process and is of interest to only to pure scientists. And so no frogs were harmed in this, but yeah I’m just I seconded it to the point where everybody else would just go: okay, that’s more than enough TMI, fantastic! All right! Well, hopefully, you’ll come back when the book is released and we’ll talk a little more.

It’s been a pleasure again. The book is funny, means money right funny see. That’s such a great title. Nobody can forget that my name is John golaloon from says pop online says magazine and pipeline is here and thanks again Karen, I see all for another expert interview. Really soon, thank you all right, thanks, so much John


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How to Have a Sales Conversation | Michelle Weinstein

My name is John going from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I am joined by Michele Weinstein the pitch queen, who is in San Diego, just like myself, how you doing Michele yeah. I am great thank you thanks for having me absolutely and first of all, let me just ask you: where did you get the name, the pitch green from the pitch Queen? Well, one of my friend’s name is Shawn also lives in San Diego online entrepreneur is talking to him about, like what am I going to name myself.

I didn’t want to use my name I’ll, probably get married one day really soon and then my last name is going to change. So if I use Michele Weinstein and I’m not a fan of some, you know people with my last name. So I went with the pitch Queen because it was just available on every social media platform and the website when we were doing our brainstorming session and when I noticed that I said okay, let me buy everything and get every single social media handle right now and That’s really how the pitch Queen came about, but I love pitching products/services pitching investors for fundraising, like that was always my thing, so it has nothing to do with baseball or softball right.

It only has something to do with pitching, for you know anything sales related. You know a lot of people, think of it as a pitch, so that’s how the pitch queen came about excellent, and so what we want to talk about today is Michelle, helps people to and teaches them how to sell and have high value conversation and sell high Value services without feeling sleazy, pushy, yeah or desperate right, okay, so, let’s actually a really big one, because the less you you know I like to call it actually, let’s talk about the desperate one, because no one’s put it that way to me mm-hm, but when you’re Less desperate as it comes to raising money or you know, selling a higher value service, the the other client or the investor can sense that and when you don’t and I’m not saying like not care, hey, there’s that there’s a situation with.

I was working with one of my student Christine and she was at the other end of the spectrum like I could care less. The clients work with me or not take it or leave it, and when we come from that place, we’re actually doing our clients a disservice, because if they don’t work with you and you’re the expert. Yes, then, there’s where the problem lies because they’re going to get serviced somewhere. Yes, that investor is going to put their money somewhere.

So if you truly are the best and you’re the best person for that client to engage with or enroll within your program services or whatever, when you have the take-it-or-leave-it mentality, that’s actually hurting your client in front of you, because if they sense that and they go Somewhere else, but you are the best one to help them, then they’re not going to get serviced at the level they could have if you would have just taken a slight percentage off the naked or leave it mentality.

However, when you’re done for it right, so if you think about being desperate and if you think about it, yeah and if you think about it right, we’re in July so for a lot of people around calendar years here, especially salespeople. And this may be the time when they are starting to feel a little desperate, because they’re quoted that seemed it seemed achievable at the beginning of the year and now seems really daunting.

So how do you? How do you control that sense of desperation? Well, and that’s the thing it it’s when you come from a place that, especially if you’re on a monthly quota right and you’re getting towards the end of the month, if you can work on your mindset to come from a place where it’s just the first of The month or it’s the second of the month, your sales will naturally start to increase and the reason why is that the client sense, the desperation that you need that next sale, that you have a quota to meet and when the clients feel that they’re? Just another number or they’re another quota, and they get that sense of desperation.

That’s where you actually lose more opportunities than win so one of the best ways. Then you can just try this right now if it’s get towards the end of the month, think about it as it’s just the first of the month or it’s the second month and when you detach from the desperation in that you actually don’t really need that client. That clients not going to make or break your quota, you want that client to help and serve them, and that’s actually the reason why you want them not for your benefit, so the desperation typically stems because it has something to do with you when really as sales Process has nothing to do with you yeah.

So when you can separate the two that’s when your sales are going to increase, so if it’s July, you know 25th and there’s 31 days than July on the 25th, pretend it’s July 1st on the 26th returned its July 2nd and really come from that place. In that you’re coming you’re coming from a clean slate to that client meeting you’re going to do everything you would do on the 1st with that client. Not what you used to do on the 25th with that client and read to see what happens on your chance of your clients, engaging with you and you actually getting those sales yeah, because it’s a tough thing, sometimes for salespeople, because it’s like, if I say to, If I really need to get this deal done by the end of the month and I’m giving you all sorts of incentives and you’re just not biting, because guess what you don’t care about, whether you get it done by the end of the month.

Because for you, you maybe implement, you may have decided that yeah you’re going to buy this product or service, but you’re not going to implement it immediately. So you can buy it next month, month after to matter to you right and just because you’re offering them incentive that doesn’t get people to buy. What gets people to buy is understanding. What would what would move them to implementing it right now, because I only want to work with people who want to implement right now who have a problem.

They want solve right now, because people buy yes based on people, but people buy on the emotional side. So if you can’t connect the dots to their challenges to their emotions, an incentive isn’t going to move somebody that that’s actually not the thing that moves the needle it’s working on the other stuff to understand. Who is ready to make a change right now and focusing your effort and energy on those people versus the numbers or, as you said earlier, is bringing value to them by actually being able to demonstrate to them why a sense of urgency is good for them.

Why solving their problem earlier would be good for them right right, so one of the things that you could look at is: what’s it costing them by not doing it now. So, if someone told me that well, I want to think about. I want to this actually happened to me the other days, but yesterday, okay, so they said well. I just wanted to get information on your program and I said well, that’s great. I I really can appreciate you wanting to get more information on our you know program and how I work with accountants and all that other great stuff, but he had so much going on in his personal life.

I think there were some illnesses and other things that I’m not I’m not a window shopping place like I want to help people now, so you know I walked him through a nice process and and really being supportive of what he was going through with his parents And his family and all this other stuff – and I said you know – one thing you might want to consider is every time you put yourself second in line right, you’re, putting your family first, but you probably still have time that you could make it change, because every Month, you don’t make it change, it’s basically costing this guy about ten thousand dollars so by all means, but I will be here in the next three months I’ll be here in six months.

So when you realized that the 30 or 60 thousand dollars that it’s costing you by waiting, I understand the family stuff, but that stuff’s always going to be a part of life. We’re human beings mm-hmm. Those challenges are never going to go away, but we have control over certain things in our lives. So I said you know what, when you’re ready, then I’ll go through everything on how we can help you yeah you’re, not going to be a hundred percent present.

So I don’t want to waste my time if they’re not going to be coming for the plate and being a hundred percent present with what they want to do so a great way, depending on what you sell your product or service or whatever is what does it Cost that person to stay in the same place each month or each day right and and bringing that to life, because once he marinates on that, maybe in the next 30 days he might reach out.

But I didn’t make it about my quota sure he didn’t make it about my sales or that I have bills to pay her. I have anything I was coming from a place of serving him and helping him see the reality, because I can see the reality loud and clear you. He had like masters a few different designations and he’s only making very little money, but he could be making probably double if he did it on his own, but to take that leap of faith, basically, as the salesperson you’re helping people get past their fears.

Yeah. That’s really what we do right, ya, know and absolutely, and you know helping people realize that there’s never the perfect moment to execute something, because there’s only your best. Your best moment result is often just now is just to take the leap. So a close relation of desperate, obviously is pushing right. So how do you help people? Because sometimes the people don’t mean to be pushy they’re just you know they just get caught up and it says people get caught up with it or they they.

You know, they’re. It’s it’s tough right. Sometimes it’s a sighs! Well, you know it’s tough, to to wait for the process or to go execute the process. Sometimes. Is that there’s that temptation to take shortcuts, which immediately translates into pushiness right and when we take shortcuts or we come from a place of desperation? It comes off as pushy to the client. So one of the ways to not be so pushy is not make this whole process about yourself.

So once you can make it not about your quota once you can make it not about what day of the month it is what month of the year, it is depending on how you’re going to get your bonus. That’s where you’re going to come from a place of not being pushy, I was told actually yesterday, you know woman wanted a refund of her deposit and she said Michelle when you got my deposit, I was you were pushy. I said you know what I can completely appreciate that and what I found is that, typically, when people make decision, that’s where your decision-making process as the client can come across feeling pushy because, like you were saying earlier, there’s no better time than the present, and so When you can help someone get past, their fear break through their fear, help make a decision.

They might come months later and think that that was pushy, but ultimately it was actually just them having a decision of a yes. I want to do this or a no and it’s not being pushy, it’s actually just their reaction to them, making their own decision that someone just guided them and said you know what I I can completely appreciate that sometimes that might come off pushy right and acknowledging That you think one of the biggest things salespeople miss all the time is that you don’t acknowledge how someone feels and that way that they feel is real.

It might not be the truth, but that’s just the way it comes across. So how can you, as the salesperson just be really calm and understanding and understand how they might feel and that you know what hey I don’t want to their eyes that I don’t want to work with anyone who thinks that I’m pushy, so you know what. Actually, I don’t think we’re going to be a good fit to work together. So that’s no problem and then people right, that’s the opposite of being desperate and then they’re like oh whoa.

Wait what what did you just say: yeah, no you’re! I was really pushy. I apologize, I completely understand a lot. Some clients feel that way when they’re making a decision and that’s totally okay. I honor and respect that, and I wish you nothing but the best, but I like amazing the results you’re going to get what I like about that. But I like about that. Michelle, though, is is in some ways you’re taking the person back to the dis to the decision and why they made the decision because you’re correct it’s very easy later on to go III.

I didn’t really want to do that and they push me into it. The reality is, you did want to do that, but maybe you just need to be taken back to what drove that decision in the first place right. What was their challenge? What was their problem? What did they want to create in their life? Why did that investor want to put money into that company versus this company? It one time passes they’re. All they have to do is blame oast people blame other people, sure right how many people take responsibility for their own actions.

Well, your clients are probably not going to do that so taking them through the process of either a acknowledging where they were and that they made a decision and great. You don’t want to work with people who think you’re pushing anyway and would keep it moving or take them back to where they were when they made. That decision, like you said, remind them of their problems, start asking those questions that tie it to.

Why did they make that decision at that time and let them realize? Oh, I made that decision. You weren’t really pushy right, yeah yeah, it’s great because you can say: hey, listen, maybe we’re not a good fit to work together, but just out of interest. How are you going to solve the issue that you wanted to solve in the first place, like yeah, I’m or just come from a place that curiosity, I’m really curious like? How are you going to solve that problem that you know make it specific whatever they told you, but I’m just really curious.

I would love to know because I think I have a few other people that might want to take that path too and the other one who said you had a bit about their feeling. You know without selling without feeling sleazy – and I guess this is an interesting one, because this comes down to sometimes the percent. The self perception that salespeople right right, because they’ve, because they’ve been bombarded in many ways with negative cultural stereotypes of what salespeople are and they’re.

So and sometimes they’re so desperate to avoid it that they almost manifest it right right yeah I mean the whole salesy part. Is your sales beliefs right it’s or, if you’re like in a rut right, like maybe I’m being too pushy, maybe I’m being too salesy, but I don’t have all the time in the world to go into it today, but I do if you go fell without fleas. Calm, you can get my five step to helping you.

I’ve got an email each day that will help your mind set on this. So again, it’s like it’s cell. Without please calm, it’s not without sleeves. I love it. Well, listen! Yeah! We are bumping at the end of our time, so this is perfect. If you want to tell everybody a little bit more about yourself how they can find out more about you be great yeah. I have a lot of resources on my website that will support you.

The pitch Queen calm, I also have a mind set course, if you’re interested in learning more about that. So it’s how to think and act like an eight-figure entrepreneur from all the people that I’ve interviewed and how they got past. You know their sales blocks or mindset blocks because to grow a business over eight figures. It takes a certain level, so you can get that over at eight figure, tips, calm and I’m on Instagram or Facebook.

The pitch Queen and I would love to connect with each of you how I can support yeah listen. This has been great great takeaways today, Michelle it’s really interesting conversation. You know maybe you’ll come back and talk again. Maybe we’ll go into your five steps. A little deeper and another occasion yeah, I would love to thank you so much for having me and I’ll see you over at eight figure, tips, calm or sell without fleas calm.

I love that one set without sleeves. That’s memorable and people aren’t going to forget that. Well, this michelle time totally free that one that one’s free, perfect well, thanks again, my name is John golden says pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM. I see all further expert interview really soon. Thank you. Thank you.


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Organizational Design with Amy Kates | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden, says hop online says magazine pipeliner CRM and today I’m joined by Amy Cates. How do you do Namie, I’m just fine. Thank you. John and Amy is part of Managing Partner of the Cates Kessler organization, which consults in a number of areas, but particularly in organizational options and implications, and how to make sound decisions around how to structure your your organization’s.

You also teach at Cornell, there’s a correct and and obviously is also an author of numerous books and speaks and writes on a regular basis, a pretty busy so for somebody listening Amy. Her name is in by the way in New York today and I’m in San Diego Amy, for somebody listening when you talk about designing, you know organizational design or organization design. What do you mean by that to some people that might sound? Well, that sounds very because in the past organizations were fairly simple, but the world has gotten much more complex in the last four twenty years and we have to think about not just strategy and people.

But how do we really build an architecture of an organization so that people can come to work and do their best and understand? Who do I talk to how do decisions get made? How does workflow so when we talk about organization design its? It’s really the set of decisions you make after strategy to say? How do I want to configure my organization so that people can connect the right way horizontally vertically to get work done, and typically we work with companies that are global, that multiple product lines that are developing new strategies that are moving from? You know business business, to business, to consumer, introducing digital capabilities, and this complexity really requires than an organization that can can match the what to do that strategy.

Yeah, because it’s interesting what you say there, because you know what a lot of companies, obviously they they do. Their strategy, and then they move straight to execution right and don’t do that kind of structural piece and also a lot of organizations. You know traditionally kind of grow organically right I mean they structures come about organically. So what happens when you get that we’re we’re a company moves from strategy to execution without the design part yeah.

So typically, is its strategy really not even to execution? It’s the org chart? Okay. So let’s change the org chart change the direct report structure. Let’s consolidate some pieces, let’s make some new roles to get things done and we we design around people and the people that we have as opposed to thinking about an organizational model that can last so what happens when we don’t really do design work to think about How structure management process reward mechanisms and people processes work together in a system? What you do is you might solve a short-term problem by let’s say we take out some management layers, so we can press the organization and say that’ll speed decision-making.

We’ve changed the org chart, but we haven’t changed the work and so soon what we have is. The organization starts to organically grow again to fill in those missing pieces. So when we do our work with clients, we start with strategy. We look at capabilities and we say: what’s the organization model we want to organize toward and then let’s make smart decisions to build, really a roadmap to get there yeah and – and you raise an interesting point there, because that is the big trap that our companies fall Into is fitting.

People is starting with the people rather than with the the process or the organization of the structure, and then you kind of go. Oh well. You know this person they’ve been around a long time, so we’ll shoehorn them into this. Even though they’re the work, even though they’re completely not the right fit for it right, but it’s a real it’s real temptation to do that. Isn’t it absolutely and because that’s tangible, I can see that I can make a change.

You know we often joke that organizations are really. You know, three-dimensional invisible, abstract concepts, you you know, you feel the organization impact see, but you can’t see it, and so when leaders or even HR professionals, don’t feel confident in the set of tools they have. Then it’s easy to go to the things that we can change, that are tangible. Let’s change the org chart roles, jobs, people in those roles.

So that’s why we’re so passionate in our firm about not just doing the work and consulting but writing and teaching and making articles and doing workshops to really build the skills out there and demystify this and the other trap that people fall into a lot is. Is this idea of you can only scale by people right? You can only add more and more more people without taking a step back and looking at the efficiency part.

Looking at the structural part when you, when you work with organizations, is that something you come across a lot where they’re just throwing people at problems rather than analyzing the issues. Just don’t have enough to do we’re not busy here right, so everybody’s busy and yet feels and feels overwhelmed with communication and priorities, and yet we have inefficiency in the work and high costs so and the usual answer is you’re.

Absolutely right. Let’s put more throw more people at the problem, but more people actually generate work as much as they do work. They create surface area, they ask for meetings, they ask for data, they ask for reports. So one of the things that we go in and look at is is: it is really to start with the work. Let’s, let’s redesign the work and the workflows in the context of the strategy capabilities we want to get done and then look at people what you know what’s going on right now with machine learning, artificial intelligence, automation which is you know, it’s been building its in there, A little bit, but it’s going to come fast and big, is fundamentally going to change the nature of work, not just what we’ve seen in manufacturing or service work or call center kinds of things, but really in marketing in R & D and where we thought you Know this is where people’s jobs is are really about decision making, it is artificial intelligence is going to change it so or design becomes even more important, because we have to think about what’s the unique contribution that we need people to make and be sure that we Have the right skills in the right place and that again we we organize, so we can do unique things together, yeah and that’s an interesting you to bring that up about AI in machine learning in there and and baths and all of that kind of stuff.

Because I do I mean obviously, we are seeing that rapidly coming into into into many organizations. But we still don’t have a great grip on how, as you say, how to combine it with the people and at the end of the day. And we always had this thing about pendulums. Don’t we like pendulum goes: it’s like: let’s replace everything with AI and machine learning and then so, when you’re talking with organizations, how are you helping them through this transition because I can see this is on the horizon? For a lot of people, yeah yeah, so first, what’s interesting, you know 15 years goes all that outsourcing and we see a lot of companies bringing back some of that because they they push too much out the door, and that was core to their capabilities.

But with organizations you know what’s changed I think is strategy is still important, but it’s less about hey. We have a three-pronged strategy: that’s good for five to seven years, we’re going to organize toward that and get into some steady-state we’re working with a lot of organizations in industries in which we don’t know. What’s going to be a winning strategy. So when you think about media about cable, television and entertainment contents related, how do are we going to get people to pay for what you do? You know, for example, and all of the old business models are really being challenged.

So, in a lot of ways, the work is not to designer organization to a fixed strategy, but it’s to create organizations that can sense the environment that can make decisions quickly, that can experiment and rapidly prototype and try out different ways to see. What’s going to work and make good decisions around a portfolio of opportunities? Um because we don’t know you know which is going to be that winner, and so that’s that’s new and unsettling for a lot of fun, Peters, yeah, cuz.

What you’ve described there is obviously anathema to the way organizations were in years gone by. I mean this idea of you know, being extremely flexible and fluid and able to react, and you know prototype and and experiment. A lot of people were not set up. Organizations are not set up that way right, so this is obviously the big challenge ahead for people like you, when you work with organizations is how do you take and that a new problem – and I’m sure you’ve done this, obviously with some organization.

But how do you take a very maybe traditional organization and help them on that journey to being a little more flexible and fluid yeah yeah, and you know what’s interesting – is that flexibility and fluidity is not um. Just chaos right. You actually need more leadership. You need more discipline, you need more process in order to be fast and adaptable, especially when you’re, when you’re looking at organization, that’s in multiple regions – and I get has multiple product lines trying to come together for common customers and then make this change so um.

The way to do it is, is it has to start from the top as well as from the bottom, so it’s about leadership really being clear about where they want to go and what those new behaviors are. What success looks like again, we might not know the strategy, we might not know what even products we have, but we know how it will feel for our customers and how we need to work together. Then it’s about unleashing some of those experiments down close to the customer right, it’s not about just having something up at corporate that says up.

This is innovation here it is it’s really helping the people who see and touch the customer des, try new ways and create networks to really see what works and and invest in those. So it’s a lot of almost an internal venture kind of mindset that you have to build, and that has to happen over time. It’s it’s not just hiring a person. So again, this idea of capabilities that you know we make the distinction, say: competency lives in a person, but a capability, an organizational capability, something we do together and so focusing on that on.

How do we need to work together in new ways to get different decisions? New outcomes is really the old design work yeah. So it’s not a question of just hiring it. You know chief chaos officer or whoever something you like that, but I love that thought of what you’re saying about the fact is the flexibility and fluidity. It does not equal chaos because it can’t, because, obviously, chaos is the opposite: everything kind of grinds to a halt to glorious halls eventually.

So the other thing that kind of really in true intrigues me about this is you. You went back to leadership right, as you said leadership at the beginning. So that’s that’s. A big challenge now is for leaders to transition to being different types of leaders and in the past maybe the command and control is it doesn’t work so much anymore and it’s more the it’s more having this structural vision and then getting the right people to implement It absolutely but make no mistake, it is not.

It is not abdication of your vision, you know again walking into so many companies doing org assessments. What I hear over and over the number one issue that I hear across companies, we have too many priorities. Our leaders are not making choices, they’re, not setting direction or helping us make trade-offs. Where do I spend my time? Where are we making investments, and so the work of leadership today is to make some of those big bets again and and then nurture the small portfolio of small opportunities and and know when to stop a project know when to double down project, to move resources and That takes a lot of courage that takes a lot of collaboration that takes a high-performing leadership team to make trade-offs against all of these different options.

Low ego and then it takes managers, corporate coaches to help people really work in the teams across these boundaries. To get new work done so so the change that we see is absolutely you’re right. It’s not commanding controls, not figure out and tell me what to do. It’s giving me the framework so that I can come to work and spend my energy in the right. The right way – and I’m glad you mentioned that idea of choice because it’s a bit of a soapbox of mine.

This idea is like human beings as human beings. We hate making choices, everything we like, but we really hate it because when you choose one thing you by definition of default, unchoose other things and we prefer to hedge our bets all the time, and I do think we were in a in a world you’re right Now you’re we’re in a world where you have you have to make choice and you have to make bets and if you make a wrong choice, you’ve got to get out of it quickly, right, yeah, yes, so speed! You know if, if I was to say, what’s the biggest difference that see in the last, you know 20 years of doing this kind of work.

It’s not. The world wasn’t complex before global, but the speed of of expectation has changed. So what technology has done? Is it it has been a cycle times of product development, of of customer expectation of R & D, and yet we need to. We need to connect the best middle of managers in our global organizations, and you know, I often say, as human beings we haven’t really evolved in the last 20 years.

We don’t process information any faster. We still like to build relationships and get things done through trust, and so this pressure to be faster to make good fast decisions is really what drives a lot of organizational change. How do we reconfigure to get the right connections to make better faster decisions, because at the end of the day, that’s what wins, yeah and that raba see requires a good level of being able to process engineer very fast right? Yes, yes, yes, so it’s really management processes, business processes, workflows, decision processes, governance forms friendly, it’s all the stuff that leaders and managers hate to do it’s not a fun thing that you know we sign up to do to say: I’m going to be ahead of a Function and ahead of a business unit this, but this is the work I mean, I think that’s it.

That’s a that’s a great point also to touch upon there yeah. It’s not it’s not probably the most exciting of work for people, but as you, as you have laid out quite clearly here that if you don’t get your processes right, all the different processes right you’re not going to be able to move with speed and you’re. Not going to be able to you know, have success and and and you’re not going to be able to change direction.

If you need to fast either exactly exactly again that idea of discipline rigor, you know how we run teams. How do we meet how we make decisions, how we manage work and handoffs but across boundaries? All of that helps us actually to move faster, but it means John putting the time into design those being thoughtful and then also keeping them healthy because they don’t last as we choose direction, we need to change all of those pathways and mechanisms and and what I Urge leaders to do is to explain that to employees so that it’s not we’ve made a norm change this time.

We got it right, it should last because it won’t and then they won’t, it reduces trust and credibility. Rather, to say, we have an organizational vision just like we have a strategic vision, we’ll be organizing toward that and here’s what you can expect as we move forward together, stay with your way to managing change yeah, and I think that’s a that’s a fantastic point too. To end on here is that idea of getting people comfortable with the fact that what you’re designing is the best thing you can design for today, hopefully for tomorrow, but maybe the day after that we might have to change again I mean you look at, as you Said the speed of disruption I mean you mentioned the broadcast and TV industry, I mean who they wouldn’t have thought a few years ago that they get so blindsided by streaming and now they their struggle for business models.

They can so I mean IIIi. Think that’s a great thing to to end on that idea of the fact. Is you you we’re not we’re not building to steady States right we’re building the best for now? Yes, so it’s a growing field. There’s lots of resources out there. You know we’ve been making articles and articles books and really trying to help people understand their tools or frameworks. There’s methods to think about this and have the conversation together and just make make smarter decisions about your organization yeah, so Amy before we go.

If you just like to tell everybody a little bit more about yourself, your organization, how they can learn more about you and what you do sure I’m Amy Cates my partner is quick Kesler. We have a wonderful team of just about a dozen people that work with us and all we do is help. Leaders and leadership teams make smart decisions about their organization, but we also teach our design, as you mentioned, through Cornell public programs, in-house programs.

We have the latent learning series online, as well as YouTube blog of articles and our website case. Counselor comm has lots of articles and blogs on the topic if people are interested so we’re always eager to share and to teach and always have someone contact me with a question: great, listen, Amy. This has been fantastic and I encourage people to check out more about this, because I’m I’m a firm believer that it’s it’s! How you organize yourself! That’s how you’re going to win in the future, because you’re going to have to be moving in so many different directions and being able to be very, very flexible in that so again, my name is John golden says.

Pop online says magazine: pipeliner CRM, Amy Cates been a pleasure and look forward to see you all again soon. Thank you.


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Master of Negotiations with Herb Cohen | Sales Expert Insights

My name is John golden from says pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM and today I’m delighted to be joined by herb Cohen, who is in Brooklyn Heights in New York. Hey turn herb you’re, just fine and herb has for more than three decades or maybe even more he’s been a practicing negotiator intimately immersed in in some of the world’s leading, like headline dramas from hostage hostile takeovers, hostile hostage negotiations, your clients have been executives, entrepreneurs, sports Theater, the glut corporations, government agencies and you’ve written a number of books on the subject of negotiation, so so herb, I, you are a definitive resource on negotiations and I’m sure you’ve forgotten more about negotiations than most people will ever know in their lifetime.

Right. Yes, although so what are some of the when people come to negotiate in the first place, I don’t think negotiations are something that comes naturally to most people. I mean a lot of us think, maybe that we’re good negotiators, but we don’t really know what we’re doing. What are some of the mistakes that people make when they approach negotiations in the first place? Well, initially, they believe that it is something that’s very narrow, they see it, they use the metaphor of the pie and they think well, here’s a pie with 12 slices, and if I get six, they get six I’m going to try to get eight and hold them Off so they see it as a competitive game and that’s really not what it is.

Actually, you know, if you take the pie metaphor I may like the crust, then you may like the apple and he’s like inside, and so you can generally work things out or both sides gain in both sides benefit yeah. So so I mean I could just saying they’re so but – and I think that’s true and I think that’s unfortunately true business and life – that people tend to look at things as finite as opposed to you know, there’s enough there for everyone, but also tell me people Do people generally very few people love the negotiations? Phase right negotiating is something that’s learned.

I didn’t start out as a negotiator, you learn it it’s a skill that you will acquire and the way you acquire it is by practicing it probably. The first things that people should remember is that virtually everything is negotiable. Thing is the product of a negotiation. That’s how it came about a price thing about like Tiffany’s, would you say gee it’s going to go stated Tiffany’s? Oh my god. You know it’s like untouchable.

It’s holy ground. Yet how did they establish the price that judging $ 8,000 for the ring – and these salespeople said hey, let’s make it seven we’ll sell more rings. The accounting financial people said no make it nine profit and they worked it out and ultimately, they came up with 8000, which prices 7990 sounds better. Yeah point is: if something came about as a result of negotiation. Of course it’s negotiable and if you start to think virtually everything came about as a result of the negotiation, the only thing that didn’t are religious and ethical moral principles right other than that everything’s negotiable.

Like I wrote a book, you could negotiate anything which has been translated into 36 languages, yeah and I’ll, be the world’s world’s biggest selling book on negotiating them selling selling is a negotiation anytime. You were attempting to influence someone’s behavior you’re negotiating we negotiate. Is we negotiate with banks? We negotiate what our boss, we negotiate with subordinates mm-hmm. Why is this series of negotiations and if you learn how to play this game, you end up being much more satisfied and living an enriched life, so you say in your book: you can negotiate anything there’s three crucial steps to success.

What are those steps? Well, I said: there’s three things: there’s information and the more you get the better off you are. The next is time and the third is power and people always have more power than they think they have. We always underestimate. Ourself, for example, it’s a prisoner in solitary confinement. You know they take away your shoelaces and your belt, so the guys walking around he’s holding up his pants.

You know he’s got those shoes and he craves a cigarette. He goes to the going knocks on the steel door. The guy opens up. What do you want be nice? Why I, like his cigarette BAM, the god slam he comes back, he does it again. The God opens up. I just told you no, he said, look if I don’t get a cigarette from you within the next minute. I tend to bang my head up against that concrete wall till I’m bloody and unconscious and when they revived me I’ll swear that you did it one cigarette.

I won’t bother you now. Can the guy get that cigarette sure get a cup of coffee as well? The point is even in a powerless situation, you’ve got more power than you think, yeah yeah. So that’s great. I’m writing that down. Just in case, I ever find myself and solitary confinement that I know exactly how to get a cigarette going forward. But I like the point, though her because I do think – and this is something I think a lot of salespeople experience like they love the sales process and all of that and they theory, but but as it gets down to the end and it gets into the Negotiation process, as you say, they start to feel like they, like.

The buyer, has all the power and they have no power left right and that’s when they start. You know offering up discounts before anybody even asked for them. So how do you? How do you help people in that situation? Take a step back and say no, no, this is you know, there’s there’s power on both sides of the table. Well. Well, first of all, let me just digress for a moment say: selling is really today a honorable skilled, profession, yeah, because you’re in selling other than other jobs in corporations where I was in selling one you get ownership for the results.

You did it. Okay number two! You get instant feedback right and in other jobs and corporations staff jobs. How do you know you’re doing well of my performance appraisal in six months and the boss calls you and tells you, and he says things, do you like remember five months ago, you thought you doing well. Well, you were, and the third thing is one ownership results, feedback and an opportunity to take risk, and so, if you’re in sales, you really can be very independent.

I was in corporations and selling positions and I could arrive late. I would pop my 10 year old car and the CEOs place because they didn’t want to walk, and I got away with all that stuff. Why? Because I was like yeah selling is fantastic and selling involves negotiation other than that you in order to take you work for Apple, and you have 8,000 new new, ipods, ipads, 8,000 new ones, and it’s the new number 16 model.

Yeah and you’ve got 30,000 people at wonnum you’re, not selling you’re, taking orders you’re filling out slips selling involves skill. It involves determining what the needs of the customer are and satisfying those needs, and a lot of that is done by your style. How you approach people and the best way to approach a custom if you’re in selling is in a congenial cooperative fashion, with what I call a low-key pose of calculated incompetence so run run that by me again that sentence say you want to approach people in an Amicable fashion, with a Loki Loki pose of calculated and comprises other words, listen to the other side find out what they want.

Ask questions rather than give answers even take notes, because people love when someone’s writing things down will say to me. But if you’re dealing a little moron you’re saying, I should write down what he says more important to write down what a moron first, because you’re the first guy who never wrote down if you’re a real professional salesperson, you’re finding out what your customers needs are and You’re shaping your product, your service, whatever you have to meet those particular needs, he’s satisfied and you’re satisfied.

In fact, you never approach people in the condescending way. The opposite is true: negotiation selling, dumb is bed and smart inarticulate is better than articulate. You want to train yourself to say I don’t know I don’t understand. Could ya? Could you help me I’m kind of new at this and let the other side help you let the other side, your customer virtually meant to you. Through this deal, you will become a much more successful person now, in fact, I have what I call the magic words of selling.

These are three-letter words. First word is spell hu H and that’s pronounced. Deca word is WH 80 WH a note T on and it knows wha. It really helps me see. One of my strategies, the negotiation and selling, is to make the other side feel superior to me right if any cases get the work very hard, but nevertheless the pays off, and so your style, your manner, your demeanor is more important than the content.

The price of this transaction and many salespeople think well, I didn’t get it because right, the price. Do I if we cut the price, but in reality you know, there’s an old saying when people are get annoyed, they say: well, it’s not what they said. It’s the way they said mhm, and so, if you look at your most successful salespeople, most successful negotiators, they have a style, a manner that other people relate to.

They feel nothing yeah and it’s true. I mean they always say that people remember how you made them feel not really what you said. It’s the same, if you can give an hour-long speech and people may not remember practically anything, you said, but they go wow. That was good. I really liked you know. I really felt that was engaging, and so I I take what you’re saying about sales number one. I think it’s a it’s a very good point.

It’s a fantastic profession, it’s unfortunately, it gets a bad rap, because popular culture loves to present it in a particular way. But this idea of a win-win, because sometimes people mistakenly think that if you don’t come away with more than the other person in a negotiation that you somehow lost, no, it’s not true. First of all, the last thing you negotiate is the quantifiable item. You save that to the end and you get people to invest in a relationship, see if I start out collaborative or cooperative.

Even if the other side thinks see this guy’s week, I’m going to conquer and destroy him, I’m going to get more pieces in fine cuz. He sounds funny, you know and look at me. He looks funny. He don’t look like a great top overpowering executive. No, and so what happens? Is they invest in the relationship and once people invest it’s hard for them to divest? You know. Rats at human beings have this in common, the more energy expended in pursuit of a particular goal, the more desirable that goal becomes, and so once people invest it’s hard for them, and so, if you kind of remember, is you know the emphasis upon your me manner? Your demeanor, it really helps you succeed, yeah and I think that’s and I think that’s true, so I think it’s a Kanaka said because if your salesperson and you negotiate with customer, it’s you know for the cost.

It’s also uncomfortable for many customers, because they, you know sometimes, if they’re not bringing in like procurement or something they’re, not they’re, not buying every day of the week and they’re, not negotiating so they’re, not they’re, not skilled. At that either look people want to establish relationship, in fact, the best people in our society who all of us are exposed to a great negotiators who start out as great negotiator the only people of children.

If you have kids, if you have contact with children, nieces nephews, you know that kids, who are little people in a big person’s world, technically have no authority or power seem to get a lot of what they want. How do they do it number one kids aim high. They end with unrealistic accepted all right, so they affect the thinking of the parent to the trying influence. The second thing the kids do is they believe that no is not really a final answer, but it’s an opening bargaining position.

So you tell a kid know: five minutes, ladies asking you again, it’s never over with this job. The third thing kids do is they form coalition’s? In other words, they say who can influence the decision make up the parents, other decision-makers, grandparents, so they form coalition’s with the GIMP grandparents against the parents. In fact, it’s easy for them to form that coalesced, because they have a common enemy, the parent.

What kids do is they persist? They persevere. I am my wife. We are the parents of three children. First child. We have these standards and rules very little exceptions. Second, kid: we have many more exception. Third, kid: we would tired people staying there 30 day, read: ask your brother and sister yeah used to be around here, and so, if we adopt the model of children just that we’re going to be more successful, I love that this is a great great way to Finish here, so it’s its aim, high form, coalition’s and be persistent, and then obviously it’s a win-win guy, because we mean at the end of the day anyway, because the kids are happy.

Parents are happy, life is good. Grandparents are happy, yes, well, listen herb! This has been fantastic before we go just like if you want to take a moment to tell people a little bit more about how they can contact you and learn. More probably, the best way to contact me is via email, /, h, er, b, Co AG and herb Cohen, four to seven at gmail.Com, great and listen herb. It’s been a fantastic, been a pleasure interviewing you.

I was really looking forward to it. I’m glad we were able to to make this work, and my name is John golden co-op online sales magazine pipeliner CRM SEO for another expert interview really soon. Thank you. Thank you.


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Techniques to be Persuasive in Sales with Lee Warren | Sales Expert Insight

My name is John Gollum from sales pop online says magazine and pipeliner CRM, and today I’m joined by Lee Warren, who is in London, Lee correct. That’s correct, South London, excellent and yeah Lee is a professional speaker and it’s also a first for sales pub because he also was a professional magician for a long time as well. So we’ve we’ve had a number of people on the show from different professions.

We haven’t had a magician before so Lee is written, a number of books had to persuade anyone to do anything and grown-ups, don’t use PowerPoint and what Lee talks a lot about is the art of persuasion, and I know, through all the sales people listening in today. Persuasion is a big thing so again Lee waarom. Welcome, so tell me tell me your philosophy when it comes to persuasion. Well, there’s a very long answer and a very short answer, and the very short answer is that persuasion is a very ethical thing or I think a lot of people think persuade being persuasive quite a Machiavellian.

You know they think it’s about convincing people to do stuff. They wouldn’t do, and but actually persuasion is all about getting emotional engagement with with people. So if, if someone feels like you know what you’re saying they’re more presenting to them or what you’re pitching to them, if they feel like this is interesting to them – or this is far nor this is worth their time or this is going to make them look Good in front of someone else – or this is going to make them money or any sort of positive emotion, then then you’re, a more persuasive person.

That’s the short answer, that’s my fundamental view of persuasion, and so how can people learn to be more persuasive? You know in their part, there are some things that they can do to actually set themselves up to being more persuasive in their engagements with other people. Oh yeah, some fairly simple things straightaway. Actually I mean they aren’t they’re so simple. They almost shouldn’t need saying out loud, but I find with a lot of the work I do need saying so.

The first one is you: you’ve got to listen and understand other people’s worlds. More III would say hand on heart with every client I’ve ever had and myself most of us are very, very good, especially in sales. We’re really good at talking about. What’s interesting to us, we’re often very good at the spiel and you know, but nobody wants to be sold to really people push back against that, so learning how to really listen to people learning how to really understand what people’s real needs are and what’s really on Their mind at the moment you’re coming into contact with them.

Those are two very simple things, but they’re a bit like chest. I think you can. You can learn to do those things in a minute and then it takes a lifetime to to become good at them. I tell you what others fairly simple thing people can do is is really restructure, how they think about language when you, when you meet people who are genuinely really persuasive, very often what you’ll find is they talk in either very visual language, so there are some be Using images so they’ll say things like imagine: if, wouldn’t it be great, if we could don’t often talk very visually and and the other thing is they’re very, very good, and I think they do this very honestly, very ethically, I don’t think they’re being manipulative but they’re Very good at looking at what the future could be like for all of us.

Stick together. They really do want everyone to have a solution or everyone to win from whatever they’re proposing they’re sorta, like the opposite of the you know, the sleazy car salesperson ya know. I love those ideas and let me go just goodbye to listen for a moment. Okay, because I think this is becoming an increasing problem of not just listening but be present right, because we’re we’ve become so accustomed to be distracted and we say, oh you know we’re.

So busy nowadays, when reality is, you know we’re so distracted nowadays and I think it’s coming harder and harder for people to be present when they’re talking to somebody so be present and listen. I think those are challenging things whatwhat. Do you think people can do to actually maybe mitigate from remit again against you know these distractions are not being present. Well, III. Think there’s a couple of things.

So one is, it is a mindset shift and I think you I said that carefully, yep as a restless speaker, I’m always terrified of getting things wrong on stage you know, but I think there is. There is a shift in our mindset, which is you have to genuinely believe that what other people have got to say and what’s in other people’s minds is, is as valuable as what’s in your own mind, and I think, if we’re honest with ourselves a lot of Us that we’re not really listening to people we’re just waiting for our turn to speak, so I think that you’ve got to genuinely view other other people’s worlds as being as interesting as your own.

But then, in practical terms, I think some of it’s a little bit about practice. Actually, and I mean, as you were, asking the question I was thinking of my own experience as a magician and a lot of people think magic is all about. You know the quickness of the hands, but actually that’s the easy bit of being a magician you just you just learn that and the hard stuff is really being present and understanding what’s happening, so I’m doing a magic trick.

I’ve got to practice what’s going on in my hands enough that I can forget about that eventually, because my awareness has to be all other canapes going to come and interrupt. What I’m doing is somebody trying to see behind me is somebody about to make a funny joke. That’s going to ruin my carefully repaired spirit. Yeah. I’ve got to be really aware of all those things, but I wouldn’t be able to be if I hadn’t practice the technical stuff.

So I think certainly a lot of people in sales should do a lot more roleplay. I think they should do a lot more getting their pitch down so that all of that stuff, which becomes some good, not subconscious, unconsciously works out. So they don’t really need to think about that they can actually have more attention free for what’s going on around them. Does that answer your question yeah? No, it does absolutely and I think, there’s and I think you’re a hundred percent correct.

That says people need to do more role-playing and more practice. I think if a lot of us are honest, we probably practice our hobbies more than we practice the thing that puts bread on the table right yeah and I also think does here’s an interesting exercise that I think some people should do, and it might be really Surprising is, you know, maybe do what your sales manager or somebody, but what somebody else is actually have a conversation, but instead of answering the other person immediately, you have to we repeat back what they said and showed that you understand it’s understood exactly what they said And you might be surprised how many people fail fail that exercise.

I I think that’s that’s a brilliant exercise. Actually, it reminds me, though there was a very famous acting tutor called Sanford, Meisner and, and he had exactly an acting exercise like that, which was where in pairs you’d, say the same phrase to each other about sort of 50 times. And you end up in this weird mental space, where you really do start listening to everything, except the words being used.

So now you see everything about someone’s body language and I think that’s great. I think the other thing about the other big benefit of role playing now. This is something it took me a little while to learn, because I quite often get clients to do this is that when you’re doing the role play? Actually, it’s not the person playing the role of the sales person who benefits alone. It’s the person pretending to be the buyer or the client, because they suddenly see their own behavior and they sit.

They hear a salesperson pitching to them and they think. Oh, my god, that’s you know, that’s ridiculous. Why would I ever do that, so they learn something even if they’re, not so active in the role play yeah. I agree with that because I think often for some reason we forget that we’re consumers and customers ourselves like when we’re in selling situations and then we suddenly start behaving differently or expecting the other person to behave differently than we would in that situation.

So let’s talk a little bit about language, because I like that idea what you said about people using a visual language, a different language. I don’t think we pay enough attention to what we say and how we say it yeah I couldn’t agree more and – and I think there’s a cop – I mean there’s a couple of caveats to that or a couple of pitfalls, which is, I think, sometimes some people Get too obsessed with their language and they sort of gone we’re training courses and they leap sounding like robots for a week, and you know that never works of quirky stuff well, so, in terms of language in terms of being authentic and having a really sort bulletproof Way of doing it, I I think one really great thing is to be obsessed with value and to really focus on the the value that your product or service brings, rather than the thing itself, and a lot of us get to get too wrapped up in all The processes and systems, and and so on – and I mean a sales conversation really and a persuasive sales conversation – is about an exchange of value.

You know I’ve got some value to give. You you’ve got some value to give me. How can we, as adults, exchange that and one one technique? I use a lot and it’s a great thing is to fill in the second half of a sentence, which is something like at the heart of. What I do is a simple idea, or at the heart of our service is a simple idea. Don’t know doc and what I get you to do is. Is it gets you to really focus really precisely on the value that you bring and that I think organically and naturally gets you to use a better kind of language or more, a language that matters more to cry onsen to the people we’re selling to and a Really fun example: I love to use when I was a full-time magician wedding couples would always say to me what kind of tricks you’re going to do at our wedding and if we think about that really in a sales context, there that’s a process, question they’re, not Really asking that question because they wouldn’t understand the answer.

No they’re really asking you know: can we trust you with the most important day of our lives? That’s really what they’re saying so I could say. Well, I do card tricks and coin tricks and mind-reading tricks, but but that doesn’t do anything about trust and value, or I could say instead well at the heart of my magic is a simple idea and I’ll make your wedding much better than your sister’s was that’s A bit tongue-in-cheek, I’ve never said that to a wedding couple, but but you get the idea, it’s fun, but there’s real value in and buyers.

You know wedding couples would respond to that straight away. They’d laugh and they’d get the joke, but they’d also see the value who doesn’t all the best wedding. They, you know anybody’s ever had yeah no exactly, and I think I think you touched on a great point there and does it there’s a there’s, a person, Lisa Magnuson who does presentations, training and – and she has a dis, great idea, and I think it’s perfect – that A lot of people start off for a presentation or a pitch, and they start to talk about the steps right.

How, instead of she says like if you’re going on a vacation to Hawaii? What are you thinking about? You’re thinking about lying on the beach in Hawaii you’re, not thinking about well, I got ta get the uber to the stage. Now you have to go through those steps, but you got to start with the and just like you said there with I’m going to make this the best wedding, whatever that’s what they want to hear.

You know they don’t want to hear immediately the steps you’re going to use to get there right. Oh, I couldn’t agree more and that actually speaks to what we talked about at the beginning of this. This chat, which is about getting the emotional engagement first you’re, not going to get emotional engagement with people or it’s really hard to. If you start talking about processes and steps and you I hav IE, and that just stands for hearts and minds.

So that’s the order in which you put your information. Can I get an emotional engagement first, followed by the mind stuff, the content and data and then pipe ie just stands for pictures you use loads of pictures. Loads of visual language is the interest you know. What’s the most interesting thing to the people you’re communicating with rather than to you and then e is enthusiasm. You know you’ve got to believe your own stuff and you’ve got do you’re.

The first person you’ve got to persuade it’s going to be a great yeah. I agree with you totally because I thought I don’t think number one I mean you can’t be authentic if you really don’t believe in what you’re selling and I think that comes across and I like the idea of what you said about the win-win. You know the future state is a win-win situation like and I think that’s become increasingly more important because you have savvy buyers and and as you say, you know, people don’t want the they don’t want to feel like they’re being sold to, but they want they want To feel like you’re invested in their success right and that’s the thing that you’ve got to get across.

Oh I I couldn’t agree more 100 % and I think certainly I mean the digital revolution. I mean it’s its revelry for the first time ever, there’s a lot of stuff in sales, which goes really deep. You know who we are as human beings but and there’s very little, that’s new, but what is new, I think, for the first time ever is we now live in a world where the buyer has at least as much information as a typical salesperson and anything they Don’t know is just a Google click away, so you know where you think of 30 years ago, if you walked up to buy something in a shop or showroom or something you you’d really be asking the salesperson guide me through the information tell me the stuff that That doesn’t happen anymore in b2b b2c.

I don’t think in any arena. People really they know their stuff when it when they come to buy from us and so they’re really asking ok, I know all the stuff, but now I need someone. I can trust to make sense of that for me and to guide me to actually finally part to my passion and you’re quite right and it’s a long-term thing in a digital world, we can’t we no one, can take cash of anybody and run away anymore.

You know we will read Twitter and Instagram and Facebook yeah yeah and I think the other part of it, though, is you know the win win. I mean it’s all for the salesperson and I think that if you’re going to engage with a customer, it’s an exchange and if you both come up with the solution together and it’s a new add value, and all of that you should expect it to be win-win. From your point of view, Oh a hundred percent and it’s win-win in many ways, it’s witty you, we win on that particular transaction.

You win in terms of the long term relationship, and then you also potentially win in this total goldmine for all of us, which is in terms of the referrals and the testimonials and the repeat. Business from people. You’ve never met him and would possibly never even meet with all the cold calling and prospecting in the world without those recommendations so yeah. I think it’s it’s right at the heart of mine, my business, that that thing of getting testimonials and referrals definitely so any other.

Last turn things around persuasion because, obviously like when you were a professional magician right, I mean you’re, persuading people some degree to almost to suspend, suspend belief or whatever and and just buy into what you’re doing right. So I mean what you don’t: need techniques that came over from magic yeah there and they sort of in a way they’re sort of boringly, simple and but I think it’s the simplicity of them, that a lot of people miss.

I was talking to a personal trainer earlier this week actually, and I asked him what he thought. The best exercise in the gym was – and he said, the best exercise in the gym is what’s called a farmer’s walk, which is where you just pick up a heavyweight and you walk from one end of the gym to the other, and he says, but nobody ever Does it because it’s so simple everyone’s got people’s, I mean complicated and I think it’s similar in sales, so in terms of being a magician, it’s definitely about trust, it’s there and what good magicians learn is within seconds of meeting people within seconds of walking onstage.

You have to get people liking, you and trust in you. They don’t know anything about you yet, but if you can get a laugh, if you can get a smile, if you can get a nod of recognition, that is the single most persuasive thing you can do, because you know, as a magician you’re going to be asking People give me your wedding ring. Give me your wallet. You know I’m going to set that fire to a tempo note.

You’ve got to have a lot of trust there and I think, in terms of sales, bring you back to it to the real world. So some of that’s about how we relate to other people, but I think some of its some really simple stuff about. How do you dress? I mean you know, is your dress? It’s your dress on brand. Do you look good, but the number of sales people I’ve seen who turn up looking a bit sweaty, you know, and then they sort of fumble around in a bag for an old knackered brochure, and it’s so easy to get that stuff right.

But no well, not nobody, but hardly anybody does it. So if you do do that, you you really stand out, so I think it’s really really simple. I suppose the sorry to sum it up quickly. If you only have 60 seconds with somebody. What would you do in those 60 seconds to win their trust and then just behave like that? All the time yeah, I think that’s a great it’s one of my it’s one of myself boxes as well, is that the ideas that you’ll never be ducked points for looking too good like being well-dressed or whatever you won’t get tough points for being overdressed, but you Certainly get dark points for being underdressed and for being polite, graphically correct all those simple things.

You know that you know that people a lot of people, unfortunately, because we live in this pseudo casual culture today. They think that they can throw all of those out the window. Yeah, absolutely, and – and I do mean that thing about on brand by the way – because I think some businesses brand is a t-shirt and jeans. That’s but they’ve got to be really good jeans and a really good t-shirt. You know some businesses suit and tie, and so on or really smart business dress suit or something so it is about the brand I’m in a really good example, I think, is if you went to a tarot card, something if you went to someone and she said He said, oh, I haven’t got my tarot cards today, but I’m going to about yourself anyway, walk out, you wouldn’t pay the money.

No there’s nothing. I don’t wan na offend anybody, but there’s nothing cars that does any. But you expect that you know you want to see them and those mysterious images, because it’s all part of the trust and we’re exactly not that word sails with our brochures, our website, the way we dress it’s the same phenomena in the mind, that’s fun to have To listen daily, this has been a fascinating conversation.

I know we could talk for a lot longer hey before you go to things, I’m going to get you to tell people a little bit more about yourself, but I got ta. Ask you, who is your favorite magician going on so my favorite magician that everyone listening to this would know, and probably even including the states is Darren Brown, of course, who’s taken the world by storm for the last 15 years, or so. He is just what I mean: he doesn’t define himself entirely as a magician, but he is just the most wonderful thinker and performer and writer and artist.

He sort of irritatingly talented so he’s the best that everyone listening to this would would know and if you’ve never seen him live, go and see him. It’s a masterclass in how to hold and entertain and persuade an audience excellent minds. Tommy Cooper there you go [ Laughter, ], so Lee tell people a little bit more about yourself, your company and how they can find out more about you. Well. My company is me, I mean on the on the international headquarters of my business and my website is invisible, advantage, calm and, and I’m a primarily 80 % of my work is, as I speak at the conference’s.

So so so I suppose anyone who’s got a sales conference or an internal sales meeting coming up where they need a speaker, who’s, devilishly, good-looking and great fun, okay, be sure, and then about 20 % of what I do is workshops which come off the the speaking. So I’ll sort of go to a conference and speak and then some of people say: can you work with our sales team or our leadership team, and so I do that quite a lot.

So that’s that’s what I do and how people can get in touch. Yes, if you have any difficult call, EEGs you’ll also make them disappear right. This is John golden says. Pop online says magazine, pipeliner CRM, it’s been fantastic. Talking with Lee Warren in London, see all again for another expert interview really soon. So I encourage you to subscribe to sales pop dotnet. The online sales magazine also subscribe to our YouTube blog and then comment get involved in the conversation, love to hear what you have to say.


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Sales Training for a Transforming Market | Richard Ruff

How you doing there well good day, indeed, excellent and and Richard is part of the of level 5 selling and did if you want to just tell us a little bit about what level five selling is, because we’re going to talk today about sales training for a Transformational market so what’s level five selling yeah.

Well sure, thanks for the opportunity yeah we served about two years ago I John Huskins who’s. My partner wrote a book called level, five selling and John, and I happen to bump into each other at Starbucks and he said gee. You know. I’d really liked to you know, take the book, but but start a company in designer. You know a new training methodology. That’s really responsive to you know the kind of demands we see in my first market, but you know do that all by myself.

You know I’m struggling with that a little bit. I said, well love to come to the party. So that day we decided to join the partnership, and the whole idea John behind it was was, was to say that if you really looked at what’s occurring, you know things don’t look like yesterday and and yet you know the training establishment which we’re a part we’re Doing things pretty much like we were doing them for a long time.

You know we might be doing them better, but we weren’t doing them differently. So what we set out to do was to really try to develop. You know, instead of training, content and training methodologies that that were responsive to the demands of the 21st century market and for those of you not familiar with with six work, is you know now he’s with level five selling looking at and training for the 21st century And for transformational market um, I guess 3040 years ago now you did the same thing when you were working with Neil Rackham and spin selling, and that was the last big kind of move in the in sales in sales, training and sales performance improvement.

So you’re two different centuries, two different two different initiatives. What what we were doing way back when was very much at that point, different yeah it was different and – and I think, is probably time to sort of revisit that challenge. So tell me exam you dick. Why is I mean sales training? Has you know it’s? Obviously it’s something that you know. People look at all the time talk about all the time and it often happens as it may be, the you know, maybe an annual initiative.

Let’s do sales training and maybe grab somebody and do a few workshops, and then they take that box, but there’s, but nothing really is embedded or changed. But how is the landscape changed in the in the way that maybe sales, you know traditional sales training doesn’t meet? The needs any more of the modern seller. Well, you know we sit down and say: okay, we really want to be serious about doing something different.

We need to first of all go back and take a look at the scale and the scope of the changes that are occurring in the market because they really are transformational, mmm-hmm and and buyers are buying differently. Therefore, sellers need to be doing something different and, and – and this is in the world training you need to try to be responsive to that. So what does that look like? Well, a couple of things really jumped up off the table.

The first one was that that we need to stop looking at training as an event mm-hmm and look at it as an ongoing process. I mean we’ve seen it a thousand times everyone in the field. As you know, you got a 300 person Salesforce. You know a company goes out and hires vendors. Like us. You know we do nine meetings scattered across the United States and we parachute in for a couple of days and bring one of our expert trainers, and it’s done in a really nice hotel and and the two days go.

You know pretty well and that’s kind of it a pretty good time. The food is good, you know, and the reason that won’t work is because the scale and the scope of the changes that have occurred means the salespeople. They really genuinely have to be doing some things differently and those things aren’t so easy mm-hmm. We really think that the training must move to to being an ongoing process. That means folks like us when we initiate on engagement with with a client now John, we don’t do it in terms of a program.

We do it in terms of a project yeah 180 days and a whole whole thing is to is to establish a foundation to have a continuing learning process going on provide people with the materials the wherewithal to make learning ongoing and – and I think, a key to That is the frontline managers. Well, I think you know, as we’ve always known, you know, they’re one of the biggest issues is that, as you say, with the workshop model, it’s great and everybody’s excited and they go away, but if the manager isn’t there to reinforce it after you leave it kind Of dies on the vine and the and the managers aren’t going to reinforce it if they don’t feel that they know it well enough themselves, they’re not going to embarrass themselves in front of their salespeople because trying to reinforce something that they’re not expert.

In no question I mean, and that again is sort of the second factor that John and I kicked around – that, in addition to be sowing ongoing versus being event, the frontline managers have to take center stage, though, during that 180 days we train them first mm-hmm, and We train them to to work with the salespeople and the real key is to make coaching a must. Do I can’t tell you the number of projects that I no question done myself in the past, where you know we suggested the company.

Now you guys, you got ta, get the managers coaching and everyone nodded their head, but it didn’t happen, and so what we’re doing is saying: that’s not a nice to do that’s a must do or what’s going to happen is whatever you learned in quote program will Be gone within 60 days after the program is over, so the manic, so our whole thing is actually a coaching system more than it is a training system.

So we explain that a little more because I do think – and I’ve had this conversation with a number of people, and I do think that most people do not really understand what coaching looks like in a professional business sense and especially, and that goes triple for for Sales coaching because most people, think of coaching or when you mention, if you’d say to somebody, you need to start coaching your people.

They tend to just fall back on whatever frame of reference they have from sports or from when they were when they were in high school. Oh yeah. Well, you know the coach just used to tell us what to do and then, if they told us, you know, tell us 20 times and then eventually we would do it and everything would be good. So then they go ahead and start telling people what to do which doesn’t work. So can you explain what does what is what does coaching really mean? What is coaching, and particularly, what is coaching in a sales management sense, you’re, absolutely right.

First of all, you really have to stand back to the point that you just made. You know it is not about telling people about something they need to do it’s about. Helping them learn something they need to do so. You’ve got to get off of this telling thing and getting on to the idea that you’re genuinely trying to help somebody learns and, and the biggest operational barrier to that is the managers just run out of time.

My manager has got so many things going on that coaching gets put off till Friday and then it never happens, and you can say well we’re going to change that. But but but I’ve tried it and in sooner or later it the gravity just drags it back. Because there are so many demands, the reward system is set up for closing that deal not for not for coaching one of the things that we did is said. You know you you’ve got to put in place a methodology for coaching that has a couple of things.

First of all, you need to train the management, how to coach, it isn’t high school football, so don’t be assuming just because these are really smart folks that they know the skills of coaching. So when we develop the training modules, we developed not only stuff for the reps, but but we develop specific modules on best practices approach. So that’s just on that one. I think anyone listening it’s almost it’s almost more dangerous to tell people to go off and start coaching who don’t know how to coach than it is to not have them coach.

You can make some serious mistakes and do some post interviews of why reps leave companies mm-hmm and usually there are some some very good examples. So, no don’t be sad just because the manager was just a top-flight rep and that’s usually where people tend to gravitate to get their managers. The assumption that a top-flight rep will automatically know how to coach when he’s declared a manager is just foolhardy.

That’s not clear thinking, so, yes, the first clear step, you know we believed was you’ve, got to get serious about having the managers go through some intense experiences. For example, we also build in a 180 assessment to get managers to get feedback from their people. Why? How are you doing Sally, and so we deal we deal with it with the skill development and we deal with the attitudinal part of giving the managers real feedback on.

So you think you’re, a pretty good coach. Why don’t you listen to your 12 reps and see what they think because often times it can be insightful and the other thing I think the key to it? Trying and making it happen is throwing the skill issue, but the time issue. So what we’ve done is say that coaching in the field is great, but the problem with it is takes a lot of time. You got ta get on an airplane, go someplace, so we’ve developed a way to do coaching online.

You know there are a tremendous number of learning management systems now that are really really good. I mean it’s not like the old days, where they’re great, absolutely great. We use rehearsal but they’re, like fifty others are available, but the point of all that is to say that you have to augment your your field best based coaching with some online process. So let’s say the manager determines the rep needs some additional skill development in handling objections.

Well, great, you know determine that. Have the the rep you know, make some articles about handling key objections submitted on article to the manager, the manager reades the article and then gives feedback to the reps via article? What’s it on what was good and what was not so good about that practice. Point well, you can get a heck of a lot of practice and feedback in. If you do it online versus jumping on the airplanes and flying halfway across the country now doesn’t replace, fill based coaching, but the point is to augment.

So those are. Those are the two things that I would say that if a company says you know dick what the Dickens would you do to make coaching better. I would really get serious about training the managers to coach, rather than assuming that they’re good at it, and I would build in 180 and 360 kinds of assessments, and I would find ways to augment by using too technology that is now using those yeah.

And I think the other part due to dick is that a lot of training in the past is always being set up, assuming that all selling is done face-to-face right as it used to be. But the reality is that that’s not the case anymore. A lot of selling is done online via zoom and what we’re using today and and it’s not because and it’s and he used to be at the very beginning, it was a computers, kind of a convenient thing for salespeople.

You know to some degree because you didn’t have to travel. You could save so much, but now it’s a customer preference in a lot of ways. We’re customers, we’ve had instances where the customer had said we you’re down the road. We’ll come see you! No! No! It’s fine, let’s just do it over soon. So I think using technology to coach is a good idea, because a lot of salespeople are now using technology to sell and a lot of sales training isn’t really adapted to that chair, that’s true! In 2019, what’s he going to be like 10 years? I mean first of all, the technology to do what we’re doing right today will be twice as good, and I think you know initially we got some pushback on like well.

You know my managers, don’t like that. That software stuff, you know they’re kind of old-school and I said well, first of all, let’s give it a shot because maybe they’re not quite as old-school as you think they are and we have known a trouble with it at all. Hmm, I mean it’s because a lot of people have bad experiences with some of the early systems which were like, we actually tried one and we had trouble with it to new.

It was just too complex, and so can you make a mistake yeah. So, if you’re going to do this, do a good search of the learning management systems and get one that does what you wanted to do versus one. That simply has all the bells and whistles 90 % of which you’re not going to use. And I think the other thing too is you? Obviously, you have to take your cues from customers right from buyers, because if, if a buyer wants to engage with you in a particular way, you try to force them to engage with, like somebody I talked to.

Somebody recently gave me a fantastic example. He said he was sitting in the car with this, with the sales guy that he he’d been coaching them or whatever, and the customer and there and the prospect texted the guy. Just a quick question right and immediately the sales guy called the customer right or the prospect prospect didn’t want to call prospect, took texted him and wanted a text back right, but he tried to force him into it.

He called him easily and it’s like that that misalignment and it’s like the same the same, what we’re just talking about. Sometimes you got to take your cues from the prospects and figure out how they want to be communicated. Well, some of those methodologies in the training ain’t an all bad idea. I think the third thing that we we did was we actually, which is the stuff that took us the most time is we actually, I spent about two years taking all of our basic skill modules and putting them on article hmm, you know so all the stuff.

Everything from business acumen to fundamental objection handling stuff, so that means that the sales rep can now, if the managers to the sales rep. Okay, you know you need a little bit of asking questions. We have a module on asking questions. They can turn on their iPhone. 10 minutes and take a look at best practices for that, and we have 38 of these things, and so the beauty of that is that is that every manager – and I think this point is important.

John today, every manager can individualize the training to their reps. The old days we used to customize the program, but all three hundred reps went through we’ve customized to the company enough. It was customized to the company, that’s right and people where, whereas when we stopped to think about it, you have to be able to customize it to the end and the only way we can figure out how to do. That is to put the stuff on on article, and that means that manager a can say to a given rep here are the three things you need to learn and they can pick three other skill sets mm-hmm the RET next door needs to learn and they’re all On their iPhone that, I think, is a substantial difference in delivery.

Yeah! No, I think that’s huge and it because at the end of the day you know, especially for especially for you know, experienced reps. I mean it’s, it’s tough if you put them through a standard program yeah, maybe it’s customized to the to the company, but they have to go through stuff that they’re already really good at and maybe they have to. You know go through half but before they get to bits that are actually useful for them, but the the way you’re outlining to be able to give people specifically like surgical, targeted bits of training that address their specific need, you’re going to get much better adoption.

For that too, it’s it’s a big deal because you know, particularly in today’s market. You know with how complex the selling process is. You have differences of skill sets from you know. Very you know young people that are in their twenties. The older folks are they’re in their 50s. You have different generations, which are which are used to learning in in different ways and to say well we’re going to put you all through that program in Phoenix Arizona, use some powerpoints, but not too hard, so yeah.

So we think you know, I think, the three themes of the thing about thinking about it as a continuous process versus stuff. In an event, the idea that stop kidding yourself, the coaching is a must do – is the second and the third is the trainings got to be available anytime anyplace and it has to be customized to the individual. That, I think, is the substantially different set of ideas. I love that idea of it being on the smartphone, because I think, because one of the things that I bump up against all the time is this idea, people think they’re so busy right, we’re busier than we’ve ever been and I’m like are we dough? Is it more that we’re more distracted than we’ve ever been, but the reality is that we become so reliant on these things that producing your short articles targeted at my training available on my smartphone.

It’s a higher probability, I’m going to access that when I’m sitting in an airport or at lunchtime or whatever it is, then it then, if I have to if it’s something more complex than I have to access well, we had a great example that one one of Our clients called Saturday, the other advantage of that is this also a real-time. You know the guy was almost one of his reps was about to make a call and uh and said you know he knew the call was going to have a lot of objections, so he just he just had just at his car and the module is 10 Minutes long, so he sat him and listen again to the module before the call, so you can literally go back over the content.

It’s all been quite a lot of time. It condensed down to a ten minute thing: you can. You can do the learning exactly when you need it and again pretty important yeah at the point of impact yeah I mean that’s, that’s fantastic. I mean to be able to do that to sit in your car for 10 minutes before the meeting and you know get to get up to speed on objections or whatever it is that you think is going to come up.

It’s fantastic, listen! We’re bumping up against the end of our time, dig so level. Five selling calm is the. Is the website there’s anything else. You want to tell people about level five website. We have lots of stuff on there. We have. We have a little written. A lot of articles, those you can get free by going to whether easiest way to get that is, go to my LinkedIn site, Richard roof on LinkedIn and there’s a whole bunch of articles.

You’re free. You know you can download those those constitute the sort of core material around which we built the modules. So that’s that’s all you can have for, and I love deeply you’ve also got merchandise. That’s the first. I see you’ve got all profits go to prevent child abuse. America, okay, that’s fantastic! So there you go, you can get scales, you can get a cool t-shirt, long sleeve t-shirt whatever, and it all goes through, because so on the one hand the training goes towards helping you make more money when you’re selling and if you buy some merchants or it Dies, it goes to help prevent child abuse there.

You go perfect great combination, John. I just thank your audience and John thank you again for giving an opportunity to to chat with your audience. Yeah. Absolutely. My name is John buildin says pop online says magazine. Kiona conc offer another expert interview really soon. Thank you be good.


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