Gallen in Switzerland. How you doing I’m doing very well? How are you doing? Thank you for inviting me for this collegial talk yeah, absolutely and for those of you who want to wear.
Dr. Malik is scientist author advisor educator and chairman of the management centers and Gallants Whitson under the Mallik Institute for complexity, management, governments, governance and leadership. Friedman has written a number of books and, to be honest, this is one of those occasions where I can say I have read a number of those books and we ourselves here at pipeliner, followed the thematic management theory and find it it has transformed the way we Do business so it’s excited to to talk to you today.
So what I wanted to talk about is this concept of integration or superest integration and, first of all, maybe for everybody here. Maybe if you can just define or explain what’s integration is, did you say to make something clear? You did really read the book, so you didn’t. Oh, I did yes, yes like no. I did. I read the books. In fact, you know we. We we followed the. We follow the management theory here at that pipeliner, okay, okay, well, this integration is an artificial.
It’s a creation of words. Combining two words name is synergy and integration, so sin a duration and what it actually means is bringing together quite a number, a big number, a large number of people to join in in a highly harmonious symphonie, one could always almost say in order to interconnect our Knowledge is from very many fields, creating something as a rule, totally new to a leading question, which is important, has been selected by the board or whatever Authority in their organizations to be of utmost importance.
So so this concept, I think, becomes even more exciting when you think about that organizations are, are no longer they’re, no longer restricted or homogeneous or even one-dimensional, because they can now have a mixture of like full-time employees, part-timers contractors, some office space, some remote spread around The world, so this idea of bringing all these skill sets together. It’s almost like it’s time has arrived, because now you don’t have the restrictions on getting to the expertise you need.
Yes, that is true, and it depends of course or it is. It follows from the technological breakthroughs we have done in the last couple of decades by the use of cybernetics of computer technology, of more than information and communication technology which follow from these Sciences. And so, at the first time in, let me say in the practice of management actually, which is very old one actually, because people have all always had to manage their the destination their daily life.
But for the first time we are acute with totally different technologies. We have not so far, at least broadly speaking, followed up with the organizational setups which is needed, so you have painted a very, very colored and good picture of all those combinations of things which we’re quite a couple of years, unthinkable, mm-hmm and – and it’s it’s funny – That you should say that about the organization’s not catching up, because it’s it’s quite ironic, and I and I find this all the time.
Is you see openes who have disruptive or innovative business models or products or services and they’re highly creative, innovative companies, but when they make the breakthrough, they then create very, very traditional, hierarchical companies. They bring people together and they build offices and they adopt extremely traditional models, which seems almost at odds with their disruptive. You know business models or breakthrough technologies, so so how do companies start to catch up? Because that’s at that obviously is going to impact at some stage the way you operate.
In our case I mean practically all of these, or most of these startup companies start with technology, some sort of digitalization, of course, that’s very understandable. These are the young people who are becoming very familiar in their university years or whatever, even as amateurs, but we did it the other way around just by accident. Basically, we started with the organizational said no wanted to know.
How would organizations look like if we, if we looked at them or try to understand them as living organisms? For it is a metaphor, a picture which will help many so interconnected systems, organizationally people and all the departments and whatever we have? And this is an offspring of cybernetics too. So I would like tend to mention just a little bit fact that my kind of management is a twin brother to digitalization yeah and and, as I said, I mean we follow your management theories here and found them to be extremely effective in in how it helps Us operate as an organization, so how much does this change this access to talent across the globe and in in different mode? As I said, you can have full-time employee contract.
You can scale your business now with a lot of variable resources, because you’ve accent access to them. That’s going to change the balance of power somewhat because in in past times it’s like you have companies, maybe you have like Silicon Valley and it’s all concentrated there and that’s where people need to be and that’s the balance. But now we have the potential for some kind of sort of global democratization of resources right absolutely, and it’s done that it’s worldwide possible.
Basically, let us build a way for a moment political fact: difficulties between different countries, China, the u.S. Etcetera cetera. There are still some career, but even they become very, very they become penetrated by technology, basically and by what technology transports and interconnects these days, namely intelligence by the way of information and communication in totally new formats, yeah and obviously, with the digital.
With the with the spread of broadband and now the promise of 5g, the the ability for people, as you say, across the globe, to be able to contribute to the to to the digital world, is going to grow exponentially right absolutely and what grows the fastest is Complexity, so let me let me point to the fact that for the first time in history, due to technology, I mean what I should say first is that it is not digitalization or digitization.
However, one pronounces it particularly in your country, it is not really new. We have the idol the last analog computer in the 1970s or so so that’s not really new, and we had already a big big company by the name of digital equipment. You might remember, and his very very famous founder canossian. The thing is, or the point is, what does digitization really allow us to do, and this is for the first time in history we can interconnect everything to everything else globally and this will be sort of an Omega state.
So to speak – and this is the power which is already working in nature, but in evolution by bringing up totally new things, creativity, amplification of intelligence, combining it the connecting everything with everything else, basically, globally. It will last a few years until we achieve that state really. But the technology is there and examples of this means that I mean the driving forces. You interrupt me please, no, no go on do not go head to head.
The driving forces are, of course, these technologies, but it’s not only the computer side. It’s only the biologic. It’s also the biological ones, so the bio science has become very, very important with the help of the computers, and this is one driving force. Another one is the demography I mean in. We have a lot of demographic issues and challenges. Another one is ecology, of course, and the ecosystems become all the more important and then we have also the indebtedness, the economic situation at now, but the strongest right, the most powerful driver is, in my opinion, complexity.
What comes out, interconnectivity is what we call complexity and many people shy away from it and they want to reduce complexity. On the other hand, some some things have to be reduced, probably, and in some instances it is okay. So, but on the other hand, our brains are the most complex apparatus, so to speak organs there are some ten hundred billions. It’s hundred billions of of nerve cells are interconnected in so and so many trillions of time, and this is the basis of our intelligence and our knowledge and even our emotions mm-hm.
And it’s interesting that you talk about the complexity, because, obviously yes, when you get this global democratization, etc, then it it does become more complex to manage all of this. But at the same time you have mentioned cybernetics a couple of times, and you said you know about complexity, so we we also adopt cybernetic principles in our in our products. So how does cybernetics play into this whole scenario? Cybernetics is what whole systems together.
So it is the capacity of self-organization it brings in the capacity to self regulating system to amplification of intelligence, for instance by again interconnecting parts of knowledge. Knowledge — is which are apart so far, but if we interconnect them – and there is a huge outbreak of creativity, for instance, amplification of of intelligence – I already mentioned unfreezing of knowledge, which is otherwise stuck in these silos of the conventional organization, and this gives us an Enormous amount of freedom, also in the emotional sphere.
Basically, because, with the very methodology of cinta Gration, which you meant of our conversation, we can set free the emotions of people in a way which was never even before yeah and so and so getting back to what we’re also talking about. So this raises huge challenges. Then for organizations and how to restructure themselves to be able to take advantage of all of this and, as I said earlier, even the most innovative companies tend to default to very traditional modes of operating and and and the structure and organization.
So now organizations are going to have to become more creative in how they organize themselves correct, exactly they become brain-like, and we actually and explicitly are using together with this integrational and methodologies the model of viable systems as we call it, and this is a model actually Of the human nervous system, which belongs to the most complex, but to very build functioning systems – and this is our hour – let me say our model – we are following because it works so well and we are all familiar with it or at least partly so, and so We are building organizations after that particular model and using cinta Gration as a radical, but then there are totally new kinds of strategy, for instance – and you mentioned the word – the concept of effectiveness at the very beginning.
We are after what we call a culture of effectiveness. So cultures may have many many different formats and one needs several of them, of course, but one thing is how to make all these things effective if in the rising complexity of the various parts of the world – and this is still or has been so far, an Unsolved problem, but we are very close to it. Yes, because, as I said, you know having read your books and and adopted your management and theories, you know focus on the results and effectiveness, and your obviously key to that – and I do feel sometimes you see and there’s a danger here as well as with these Organizations Asians, that the the journey becomes the focuses of pose to the outcome.
Yes, you are very that’s a very good big picture. You are you’re painting, so with the tools and, of course, sciences we are using. We can speed up the working of organizations by. Thank you pocket a factor of 60 to 100, not just six percent or ten percent, which would already be a lot of, but a factor of time, sixty two hundred creating the strong will by people to really change her make use of all these things unfreezing the Emotions and, by the way, the good as opposed to the bad emotions that are there and in many organizations I would say almost in almost all of them.
Quite the problematic emotions are predominating instead of the other ones. Creating a strong will to change your set already. So by using these methods, these social technologies strongly based on the server netic principles, and so but so when you talk to organizations and you do a lot of work with big organizations and what are some of the obstacles or or the resistance you see to this Kind of breakthrough thinking I mean there are quite a number of persons who just cannot imagine.
It is strange. It is like science fiction’s and things like that, and in a way, yes up until, let me say three, four or five years ago or ten make it ten years ago, it was already one could dream about it, and now it is at least becoming reality, and We have already applied that for almost 1,000 times and it never failed and not only that, but it performed so excellently that the satisfaction rankings are between 90 and 100 on a scale of 100 and this astonishes people and in particular also those.
Ladies and gentlemen, in the top ranks because they are suffering from the organizational obstacles to there are so many highly talented persons up there. But then how can they really master and move, let me say accompanied with 400,000 people or make it 40,000. Even that is a very complex organization, and and and and obviously you know, that’s that’s why the temptation then just to put in hierarchies and put in lots and lots of layers of middle management comes in, but that model doesn’t really work when you’re bringing like which It’s integration when you’re bringing talent together for projects or to solve problems or whatever those models start to break down yeah, so it is, and partly we can compare it.
Let me say to a symphony: orchestra know whom of our listeners love for classical music, but on the other hand, if they love jazz, for instance, it is about the same thing. No people can harmoniously work together play together. There is a yes, there is a melody on that basic, but then you can improvise around it and it always comes together to give something better, which is more than just the sum of its parts and symphony some may like better classical music.
Then they can imagine what it actually means, but then we go very much beyond the number of people who constitute the Symphony Orchestra. We can amplify that we can proliferate that kind of interplay and then to change yeah. So it’s it definitely has I mean the division. I think for anyone listening, I mean it. It’s a very exciting one, as I said where you can bring together. All of these different skill sets and creative minds and problem-solve and bring them all together and source them to solve problems and and to you know, achieve the results that you’re looking for.
But, as we said, it raises some challenges for people who have very traditional ways of thinking when it comes to to organizational culture. So what would you in in in the last few minutes here? What are some of the things? How would you advise organizations to start this process or to truly start examining whether they should be looking at an evolution of how they operate? There are very, there are several points to start with.
One is, for instance, to consider just as if it just to compare the organization with a living organism. I do not say that organizations as we have them are living organisms, but anyway they are populated by living organisms. So there is at least for now, and there is a certain comparability. Let me put it like that and then, if we let our ideas flow and say let us assume our company could be a living organism.
What should we have to do? I do not say that organizations already are like living organisms, but we can. We can think about that see and then there come up a lot of creative ideas to stop it. That is one thing another one. If one expands on that idea, you come to the ecosystem, so the word ecosystem become. These are the natural, interconnected kinds of populations plants animals whatever. So this is another good picture which is very attractive to quite a number of persons, another one we have already.
Basically, some of these cybernetic organizations so, for instance, the regulation of the international air traffic air traffic control. We have some 200,000 flights every day Dayton around the globe in every weather, condition and practically nothing happens. So there are already some such instances and examples which one can study and then it flows quite by itself see so the fantasy of people is already stimulated and ignited and they like these kinds of ideas and in particular all of them see, but enough of them On the highest ranks because they see they, they get an idea of how to unleash the potential, which is, let me say, below them, in the organizational excellence which are badly badly needed, and they know that they are yeah and and and beyond.
The organization. As we said now, with the access to all of these resources across the globe that can be brought in where you can bring in specialists for a time, you know in a way that you never could before well live. If this in the Friedmann, this has been a, this has been a fascinating conversation, and I think we could go on for a lot longer we’re scratching the surface, but want to do. I wanted to thank you for your time today.
I also wanted to thank you for for your work. As I said, we have adopted us here and it’s made. It’s made a big difference to us, so I would really encourage people who are reading or listening to go and check out. Professor Malik’s work. His management theories and his other books, because there I think you’re going to find that they’re quite transfer transformative. So again, I just wanted to thank you for your time today.
Thank you very much. John was a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for your wonderful questions and their stimulating conversation. My name is John golden says. Pop online sales magazine pipeliner CRM, CEO for another expert interview really soon. Thank you.
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